Hi,

I'm not sure if this will violate any rules of the forum, but I think it shouldn't be too bad. I've censored the part of the public quote as well.

I was in contact with Chris Ellis, Director of Operations, Ellusionist, about the fake Tarantula and TMH which sold it to me. In the most recent email, he agreed for one of his statements to be quoted publicly -

Just thought everyone should know.

No, you have not violated any rules and thanks for sharing the info.

You are a good example of how to state a case by providing pictures as evidence and really taking action to contact the orginal supplier.

i had decent experience with TMH, their prices are not exactly most competitive though. Judge from my experience, if it's proven a fake, naturally they will refund it to you (unless they are out to con). Will you share your experience with me?

The major qualm I have with them is that they know that they are selling fake stuff, and they're still selling them at original price. And even more expensive than other places sometimes.

If you're interested my full story, you can drop me a PM. I'm not sure if the forum will endorse something like that in public view.

Hi Lisheng,

I think its okay to put it up here, if its bad, then I think the public (the forum) should know about it, and they themselves can judge themselves

Since, you've got the green lights, i guess we could let the forum know about the ins and outs of tmh. As a matter of fact, they earned very bad publicity recently over this tarantula incident

I just dropped by this shop and found out that the bicycle rider back they are selling is of different packaging. I asked, and they say that that is the new packaging. So anyone here knows if the normal bicycle has really changed packaging?

Yes, i've heard news about bicycle company changing their bicycle boxes.

Ya, the new ones are called Bicycle Standard Playing Cards. :)

I dont advice people to get things from TMH..but let me just unbiasedly make some comments.

1) I feel the main issue is not about their compatible type products, but the fact that they fake that its original and sell it at the same price (if not more costly) as original. -> you will realize that NO SHOP SEEM to beat their price at 'Exact ten cuts' effect. However, i strongly advice not to get it from there. there is a HUGE reason why they sell it so much lower ;)

2) There are other shops that a ripping holes in our pockets but has found a way to very cleverly cover up the extensive increase in price. (eg selling a $40 at $165 to $250 claiming its exclusive) and hiding it till no one is in the shop before selling it to those whom he know patronize his shop filial.

3) I disagree with TMH sales techniques (mainly in the area of selling compatible products at original prices)

OK.. just wanted to drop some thoughts in to this forum (:

Anyway, i think enough has been done to broadcast MH cheating patterns. So if people still want to go, then a better way to spend our time is to ponder on the mystery of why people still want to return.

I really wonder how such pirate operations could take place in broad daylight in a country like SG. In my opinion this would be comparable to stall runners selling pirate DVDs, and look what the government has done to clamp those runners down.

(: taking study break..

K just to clarify with some of you, i have checked already. Legally speaking, TMH is not selling pirated stuff. Don't fire me yet! What i mean is.. yes we know they aren't original products yet sold at original prices. However, due to the complexity of they business technique, their items obtained are not considered illegal or pirated under singapore law.

To further affirm what i mean.
For those studying in high school and university where lots of notes need to be printed. You realise schools tend to have COMPATIBLE INK offers openly sold and for some schools like NUS, even posted in email from the school asking ppl to get COMPATIBLE inks there..

Here's it. We know they arent original ink brands. Yet we still buy it from them. Why are they not clammed down by police for selling pirated ink?
It is a Similar reason to why MH can continue selling their items.

Conclusion: I'm not fan of TMH, but legally speaking they are not frauding the law and not considered under lawful terms selling pirated things.

then i think i should be dependant on whether TMH claims their product to be 'third party' or original.

I guess in lisheng case, he assumed it was orginal. Did you verify that?

I don't agree. Not when they photocopy the DVD covers and make the DVDs as though they are the originals. Copies are pirated. It's like a copy of a Prada bag. Stamped Prada. As long as it is not under the Prada company, not licensed by the company, it is not legal and it is a pirated copy.

Even if there's a change in the name of the DVD, but the contents are the same, it is pirated. That is an offence under the Intellectual Property Protection law.

FYI, from Singapore Intellectual Property Law (http://www.singaporelaw.sg/content/iplaw2.html):

12.1.7 The CA confers on the copyright owner the exclusive right to do, or to authorise others to do, certain acts (‘primary infringements’) in relation to a work, or subject matter like sound recordings, and films, such as:

• to reproduce the work in a material form;
• to publish the work if the work is unpublished;
• to perform the work in public;
• to make an adaptation of the work or to do any of the above in relation to an adaptation;
• to communicate the work to the public;
• to make a copy of the sound recording or film;
• to enter into a commercial rental arrangement in respect of the recording; and
• to cause the film, insofar as it consists of visual images, to be seen in public.

12.1.8 Copyright infringers are therefore those who do any of the above acts without the copyright owner’s consent. The owner’s rights are also infringed by such acts (‘secondary infringements’) as

• importing, selling, offering for sale and exhibiting in public of any article where the infringer knows, or ought reasonably to know, that the article was made without the copyright owner’s consent;
• falsely attributing the authorship of a work or the identity of the performer of a performance; and
• falsely removing or altering the rights management information electronically attached to a work.

So even if it is third party, they have infringed the copyright laws and are doing so against the law.

From a neutral business viewpoint, so long as the original author of the product did not exercise their legal rights. TMH should be allowed to continue sell those stuff. (no offence, just pure business strategies).

Since we are on the subject of law, sellers are not obliged to declare they are selling third party products. At the same time they cannot claim it's original. So their could maintain silence. For consumers, we should ASK. (and of cos we expect them to tell the truth, otherwise that's illegal as well)

No offence, just my 2cents worth!

To me, it's a blatant sign of disrespecting and infringing on intellectual property.

It may not be against the law, but it is definitely against professional ethics.

Indeed as magicians, we feel that it's copyright infringement. Well, i guess there's a fine line between business, law and ethics.

Yes Bryan is right.
This is the world. Its how patent products work. Otherwise i can just claim i created Flow by dan hauss.. who is there to confirm he did it first? He created the DVD.. but he could have stole my idea to make that DVD.

So on a fair side tho you know the quotation of the law, MH never pass any of those. EVEN if they casually say its not pirated.. they are still no wrong. Viewing the bigger picture will elicit the reason.

Back to my point which is quoted in your quote (:

heartsofclubs, Luneymooney is right when he says that making an unauthorised copy and selling it is an infringement of copyright laws. It is quite clearly spelled out in what he has quoted.

This is totally wrong. This is not a justification for why a business should sell pirated products. The reason why the original copyright owners will not take legal action is because the legal costs far exceed the costs that they will recover. In short, taking legal action is costly and not worthwhile for the original copyright owners.

Jlowhy, exactly. Legal cost far exceed the cost that can be recovered. Therefore it all boils down to a question of ethics.

Sorry to side track you guys or anything, but instead of talk whether they are against the law or not and whether Ellusionist will take actions and such. Shouldn't we local magician do something to prevent or help new magician or card collectors from getting into the mess and disappointment from buying from TMH?

I mean, I've met some people who purchase from them and only to find out that their price are over kill, or that their items don't look original and such, but because that info like this thread not well known and such, they went on ahead to buy. Only to meet with reasonable price further down the road or at other place.

If you think of that, won't you feel discourage or scammed? Personally I feel we could do something about it. Just my 2 cent worth :D

Haha.. yeah. like said in my post in the 1st page of this thread.. We talk alot, but if ppl still go and buy it from MH then its sheer wonder.

and to answer a few who talked about the law, the cost of bringing them down is not high at all. boiling down to $0 if they are selling pirated stuff. Unfortunately, seriously speaking, kenneth peh has been smart enough to know the loop holes and hence evaded any actual sense of piracy. It is just like chicken rice. You might have created chicken rice as a set meal, but we cant just openly sue the uncle across the road who sells fried chicken rice. It's a clear line in the law, and if you're interested, we'd have to sit and bring out the law infringement books.

Another issue is perspective. While you being a well to do magician think that paying $120 for a dancing cane is not costly, a seriously enthusiastic magician who has financial difficulties or rather is financially tight would settle for a compatible version of a dancing cane.

We must recall that the brand MusiK and .MusiK. are seen as 2 different brands in the law. In fact in magicians who have long been in magic, the annoyance is not in the piracy but rather the price product ratio.

Let's bring another example of luchen. I think many of us know who he is. the TV magician from taiwan. Do you know his products are all pirated? (Pirated in view of your perspective)

Another case study would be the mosquito coils (not the ones you burn, but the ones you put in the window or garage vent) sold internationally from the US is NOT A USA CREATION? It was created in India, US saw india selling it, made a same product and sold it. Can we hence say US copyrighted India? The legal laws dont pursue that way.

The figure of a pirated product is complex and not as simple as just oh its not from source A so its pirated. What you as a magician deem pirated, might be well supported in huge magic organizations. No Frills products are sold internationally, only to those who have links with friends in high places.

K.. the main thing is.. Because of the price product ratio, if you really dont support MH (like i dont), ask your friends to come and read this post, maybe take a screen shot of it etc.. put it in your file and show every magician you see. Thats up to you.

But its time to stop saying others sell pirated product due to the many reasons, legal and consumer vice. *do you know in this case MH has higher stand in suing you? (:

Alright.. have fun..

Well.... A lot of things has been said, and actually, I am quite impressed that most/some of us are pretty concern about this issue.

But to be honest, at this micro level (the few individuals) its very difficult to stop any of these, while we can boycott and warn others, it still won't stop them.

What would be good in the near future is like big players in magic in Singapore like JC and his team coming hard on them. And they have done their part too, but to really put an end to these (at least for a while) is a consolidated effort.

Hopefully in the near future.

heartsofclubs, I find that your arguments and analogies are kind of problematic. I find it very difficult to agree with what you are saying. If we would like to do a proper case study or draw analogies, the arguments should be closely related to the subject at hand to be more applicable or valid. For example, we have heard that TMH pirates DVDs. It would be better if we can talk of examples that involve the copyright/piracy of media materials. Talking about mosquito coils doesn't seem valid to what we're talking about.

Nonetheless, it is nice that we all agree that we do not support TMH. I think enough has been said about this subject and we will all have our own perspective on it.

I would like to make a suggestion for those who have bought from TMH, if you found out that it was pirated or was unsatisfied with the quality, you can make complaints to CASE association. Perhaps they might take action to check it.

I think small claim tribunal is a much better alternative

First and foremost, there IS a cost. Even if you do not count any monetary cost, time and opportunity cost has to be considered.

As for the chicken rice analogy... It will not be pirated chicken rice if the content, the way it is cooked, and the name is different. Chicken rice only refer to the content (not down to the specifics). It's just like any magic content DVD can be called a magic DVD. Anyone can sell chicken rice, but you can't call your chicken rice Cavana chicken rice if it's not.

And your point is? Just because one famous magician supports piracy (which i'm not sure of, so i will not comment on that), doesn't mean that we should. Piracy means nothing to the laypersons, and so as a person who loves magic, we should just say no to pirated products period. I know from what you write, you don't support pirated products, so why bring this up?

I stand to my point that Magic Hall is selling illegally pirated products - seeing as to that the DVDs are wholly burnt from the originals and sold as originals. Pricing may be a subjective issue, but selling products eg Tarantula which is sold as Yigal Mesika's Tarantula, when it is absolutely not, is piracy. http://forums.singaporemagiccircle.com/ind...showtopic=11715

And i'll make my last point, that just because the law hasn't caught up with them, doesn't make it legal.

Ah.. Out of no where, I make an example.

10 years ago, Katong Laksa is a popular and sole key player in joo chiat/Katong. Now down the road, you see tons of people selling Katong Laksa.

Well, you may think that they are copying the "original" Katong Laksa. But seriously they are not, IF they brought the rights from the original Katong Laksa, and most of us know that the famous Katong Laksa went into franchises, and the store that says they sell Katong Laksa, might have brought their franchises and thus own the name.

Same goes to Subway and other Franchises stores. But to the story, let say you sell Katong Laksa or open Subway without buying the rights, in legal sense, they got all the power to sue you, but back down to square 1, do they want?

So in general sense, there is a thin line because being rightful to sell a product owned by someone or just sell a similar product.

Another example will be Crocs, you don't see them going around suing people that sell Similar shoes, but they do sue people they make the SAME product, which means, same material, same actually cutting design.

So those so call "pirated" Crocs shoes are not actually pirated, but just "another" design by a company.

So back to DVD. Let say you sell a effect called coin matrix 2. I can also sell an effect called coin matrix 2, IF you did not trademark the word "coin matrix 2" and the content inside is different.

So let say you sell the product and then I sell a totally similar product claiming is mine, you can sue me down to my pants and I have nothing to say.

So down to the earth, its the content of the product, media, food, clothings that have effect on the piracy. If you dupe the content, and sell it as your own, or assume to be original, then you are wrong in terms of law, no argument.

End of story, thanks for listening or reading.

Not sure if you specifically choose some words, but this is rightly said.

In my opinion, LarryDK is essentially pointing out the same facts as heartsoffclubs. No rights or wrongs. If u are an ethical person then simply boycott TMH.

Ah.. No. Different. I correcting the misleading things that was used in this context as piracy or not piracy.

In the end, I am against piracy. But saying so much is just to justify how piracy works and how can people use the loopholes of the system.

But that doesn't mean that TMH is not doing piracy. Sorry I never know because I never bought from there. If let say they are selling the exact same DVD but its not manufactured by the original source or producer, then its piracy.

If they create another similar DVD, but different host, different teacher and even different method of teaching, they could escape from the law. So those who buy, then will know.

End of story, if you want to buy from them, go ahead, they say its real, and you found out its not, go back to them and have them justify the case, settle with the boss or even go to CASE. Then you learn a lesson that you won't buy from them again.

Same goes to online shopping, you never know its real, they can say its real, but when you receive, then you will know. Then the court story will go again.

Buy from trusted source. End of story..

This brings me to one question.

We all know the gimmicks for certain effects can be easily reconstructed with items bought from our local art and craft stores i.e. gecko, Kiss chocolate effect, raven and Richard Sander's Tagged to name a few.

Supposedly you bought an effect and after prolonged usage, it's inevitable wear and tear will set in. So will you reconstruct the gimmick yourself since it can easily be reconstructed with items bought from art and craft stores or buy a replacement item which can also achieve a similar effect or will you buy the original product again?

Yea, i do fashion my own gimmicks where possible. it's up to your own creativity to reproduce the gimmicks

Of course I will reconstruct the gimmick myself, or buy a refill pack instead of the "secret" itself.

What TMH is doing is reconstructing the gimmick, then packaging it as the original gimmick, priced at the original price; duplicating the exact videos made by magicians and advertising them as the original DVDs, priced at the original price, sometimes higher. Using others' ideas, effort and reputation to sell a slipshod product at a much higher profit margin is something unethical and unacceptable to me.

I did get props from TMH last time but ever since the Tarantula incident, I do not have any intent of buying from them anymore.

actually its very sad. cus i know solo for extremely long and on the first time i went back to TMH, the first thing he tried to sell me is tarantula.. >< lols

:off: Did anyone notice the new TMH at vivo? Magic is getting more and more popular with the new channel 8 drama show, Channel U Zhong Yi Da Ge Da and now the accessibility of the magic. Not sure whether i should feel glad or sad about it.

Sorry for the off topic.

LOL!!! That's funny.

:off:

Didn't know there was a shop in Vivo. Will check it out.