I posted this at the cafe, I thought I add it here for some discussion. :)

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Sometimes I had been wondering, in the field of cold reading and fortune telling, why people ascribe to Fortune cookies....

I mean.... how different if picking a fortune cookie and reading the fortune inside, from picking a random slip of paper in say a bag of random papers? Yet I think few people will truely ascribe to their fortune being told by a slip of paper from a bag of many pieces of other slips of paper?

The Chinese has a form of divination which a person wishing for divination shakes a cylinder of sticks until one piece falls out. The person than takes the stick to an interpreter who then divines what that means.

Following that logic, how many people think that people will be open to this.

Place folk wisdom onto slips of paper, and perhaps proverbial wisdom as well, into a bowl or container. Have the person pick, or shake one out. And then the diviner then interprets the slip of paper. Perfect place for cold reading I think, but I mean without going into the logic and ethics of it all. Just thinking of what makes people accept one and reject another.

Other more established forms like Tarot and Palmistry aside, I'm talking about what seems like random information for a bunch of others type of divination. What makes one more believable than others?

Again, I'm talking about the psychology of a person, not techniques, or ethics.

Any thoughts?

"What makes one more believable than others?"

Personally, i don't think there's much difference in a person's preference over which piece of 'random infomation' to accept over others.
Very much like any other form of magic, i feel that people would believe almost anything once they have decided to believe in it.

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eg.
Guy A is happily married, and religiously believes in the divination powers of the tarot. Let's say he comes across a tarot reader and decides to have his future read to him. If the cards suggest that he would finally meet the love of his life within the next few months, what do you think would be his reaction? Would he shrug it off as a mere mistake since he is already married to a woman he loves? My guess is that he would begin to doubt, or at least question his relationship with his wife.
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Such is the power of suggestion once someone has decided to believe in something. And that's what magic does. It pulls people out of the hard realities of life, and offer them the hope/fantasy of 'what if'? Of possibilities.

I know i'm might seem to be going a little off topic here, but I feel that all of this is relevant to what you're asking.

The problem here is, that most people don't religiously believe in magic. Well, not most people anyway. Thats why its hard for us magicians to instill a sense of wonder to many of our spectators. I feel it lies upon us to balance the wonder of magic such that the spectator is amazed, but yet not make it seem too improbable to be true. Its a balance of fantasy and reality, and it is a thin thread to walk on indeed. David Blaine is one good example of why he is so successful as a magician. He makes his magic seem impossible, but at the same time almost within the reach of the spectator to grasp its concept in reality.
He is a true performer in my opinion.

That being said, to make your mentalism act look convincing, there are 2 basic ingredients/guidelines that i think you should pay attention to:

1) Convince your spectator to decide that you're for real
This is where your showmanship comes in. How you look and how you talk should all portray an expert mind reader

2) Reinforce your spectator's belief in your 'abilities'
This is the easy part. Start your routine with something small.. nothing too astounding, just enough so that the spectator begins to accept that you are a gifted mind reader. Then just slowly snowball your effects as you gain more and more credibility with your spectator.

Think about it.

no, the audience shud never belive u are a real psychic. else, u become a fraud, and if u try to portray urself as real, those who dont believe will think u are a scam.

mentalists shud always stress that they are "duplicating" mental feats, and not actually doing it. entertainment comes from achieving mindreading to such a large extent that it almost seems like u can read their minds.

another advantage is that they dont challenge u to read their minds ("why must use books?", etc) so u just dismiss such hecklers even before they begin by telling the truth, i'll be attempting to duplicate mindreading.

just like magicians must never claim to be able to do real magic. (anyway, most ppl will noe its just trickery). few months ago, jeremypei posted by saying something like in interviews, when they ask him if his magic is real, he always answers no. i learnt that and remembered it. if u claim to be able to do real magic, those who do not believe will condemn u. anyway, if u can really make money from thin air, why work?

so its only ethical that u not claim to be supernatural, and it will also aid u in gaining the audience's trust which will enable u to do more defying detection.

i agree with u that in mentalism, presentation is important. it gets ppl into the mood and feel of the entire effect, and sets the right atmosphere that ppl do not usually experience.

but i disagree with starting with a small effect, u shud start with something powerful, so that ppl will say to themselves "hey, this guy is good. he's worth my time. i'll watch him and give him my fullest attention"

u shud alternate between high points and low points in your act to achieve a variety of emotions and feel. no audience can endure a continually "high" effect as too much attention is needed nor a continually "low" effect cos its not convincing.

alternating feels is also the cue for when they shud relax or applause, use presentation for the build up to climax.

a mere difference in opinion. ;)

however, i would like to point out that you have grossly assumed a lot of things in reply to my post.
allow me to clarify them as best i can.

" no, the audience shud never belive u are a real psychic. else, u become a fraud, and if u try to portray urself as real, those who dont believe will think u are a scam."

i don't believe i explicitly told anyone to actually tell the spectator "yes, i am a real psychic. I can see into your mind", that, among other things, is simply poor class. I say leave it up to the spectator to determine for themselves how they wish to see you. Never force them to believe anything.

"mentalists shud always stress that they are "duplicating" mental feats, and not actually doing it. entertainment comes from achieving mindreading to such a large extent that it almost seems like u can read their minds"

If i understand you correctly, do you view 'magic' the same as any other entertainment performance like say, juggling? If so, this is where i disagree with you. Magic, like the word suggests, is about something mystical, something surreal. Juggling doesn't give people hope. It doesn't inspire them onto better things. Its all in your words and presentation. Don't go "i am about to read your mind".. try "let me see if i can do this correctly.." and then go about your routine. Its a subtle, but significant difference.

"just like magicians must never claim to be able to do real magic"

read above. I most certainly did not suggest to anyone to 'claim to be able to do real magic'.

"few months ago, jeremypei posted by saying something like in interviews, when they ask him if his magic is real, he always answers no. i learnt that and remembered it."

a difference in opinion. if anyone were to ask me if my magic is real, i would tell them that i believe in magic. bcos i simply do.
before you flame me, please don't assume anything. Magic to me, means something more than just being able to do a colour change. To me, the real magic is the sense of wonder and the feeling of freedom you can instill in someone by showing a few tricks.

"if u claim to be able to do real magic, those who do not believe will condemn u. anyway, if u can really make money from thin air, why work?"

again, never claimed so.

"so its only ethical that u not claim to be supernatural"

read above.
..and i shall not even dare touch on a topic as subjective as ethics here.

the rest of the reply i feel is only a difference of opinion.

i'm not going to post anymore in this thread as i don't want to reduce this to a word by word explanation of everthing i type (or in this case, Didn't type)



keep the magic alive.

actually, for those who have been here for a while, u will noe i feel much for magic. i truely want to protect the kind of feeling that magic creates. i know that magic is not mere trickery or skill, it is theatrical.

but, i will not allow the audience to believe in real mentalism or magic because of my performance. perhaps during the performance, yes, they are transported into this world of fantasy where everything seems possible, and thats the beauty of magic, but i will stress that it is imagination.

to be fair, i'll not post here anymore as well...

Hi guys, We had a such wondelfull discussion here ...
and let me remind you that it is ok to have different opinion
it is ok to disagree
So, I personally think that the discussion was very good,
let's be less emotional when we receive different opinion ...
let's also a bit more diplomatic when we propose different opinion
but all in all, it was good discussion
Thanks, guys ... to keep this forum alive !

MagicalPam

Now, I want to comment to the question of Alex, what is the logic behind fortune cookies...
Frankly, I did not find the logic, again it is my own personal humble opinion
But it seems that a lot of magicians/mentalism are trying desesperately to find originality rather than logic
In some cases it work well, hey ... people would remember you when you are original ....
Still, this effect would not be in my favourite list ...

MagicalPam

Hmm.... Things seems to have gone off a tangent here.

Check out the ending notes of my post.

This wasn't meant to be a ethical question, or a question on techniques, or improving your theatrical skills.

It is all good discussion, but wasn't what I had in mind, because truely it is very subjective and all...

I mean like... let us look at the psychological aspects of it.

Deadsoul has a point that things become real because people believe in it. As established forms of divination already creates some form of believe for peoeple, people may believe it, and hence making it a self fulfilling prophesy.

Now.... how is that different, from my writing random words of wisdom or folk wisdom, and let you draw it out as a form of reading.

Heck, to make it even better, I can come up with a more elaborate box, decorate it, and call it the "Box of infinate Wisdom" or something like that.

Would you be led to place your trust in the words written?

Then what makes one more believable that another?

Again... this is just a friendly discussion. :)

Alex,

You got my point about people believing in magic, and thus forming a self-fulfilling prophesy.
So i think the question now, is How to get people to believe in magic in the first place.
Which brings me back to my previous post about how i think its up to the performer to convince them that there 'is something going on here' that they don't understand'
Which, brings us to your presentation and routines. I feel it's up to the performer to convince the audience.

Singaporeans, I feel aren't a particuarly fantasy-believing bunch, so I tend to stay away from tarot cards and stuff like that. Personally, those tarot cards and palmistry etc mean little to me. I understand that you're asking for opinions regarding the believability of different 'supernatural' sources, so here is my take on it:

Personally, the reason why i don't buy the idea of fortune cookies and other 'slips of paper' predictions, is simply bcos i don't really believe that fate (assuming i even believe in fate) can be predicted, And printed on a slip of paper. This is especially true when there are generalisations written down. To me, such things are like horrorscopesl; they are just generalisations that can be applied to almost anyone. If it can be applied to the spectator, it could easily be attributed to coincidence.

Compare this with some mentalism for example. If you can 'read' the spectator's mind and name his card out, its a much more specific way of conveying to the audience that there is no way it could be coincidence. And when they simply cannot fathom how you could have known their card, they (even if temporarily) question their reality and the possibilities of life that they may have overlooked.

I hope this answers your question.
Please note that i'm not a professional performer or anything like that, i'm just another forum-er posting my views. ;)

Gordie,

Hey no offence man.. Sorry if i stepped on your toes. Glad to be able to discuss my opinions here with you freely. :)

Alex, back to your original question and comparison, tarot cards/palmistry present a more believable premise as compared to divination found inside fortune cookies. In this example, the cookie contradicts the serious nature of divination. Assuming if mini tarot cards are found inside of the cookie instead of a paper, likewise the impact is reduced.

I hoped I got my point across. Anyway I'm never a biscuit person.

Sincerely
Khong Guan