In terms of looking professional and audience management and so on, if a person whose performance routine isn't up to standard, i give him a VERY GOOD quality svengali deck, it's also useless.

But if i give e.g. Kevin a low quality, svengali deck, his performance might be even better and much more professional.

I wouldn't say Expensive/Best stuff give you the professionalism, if the best stuff gives us the professionalism. Then i think alot of magicians will be getting the best stuff only, the best stuff only comes from your true performance, not the stuff you hold.

Hey. I've got my own reasons okie?

So just aid me if u wish to. The posted question was Where to Buy, not Comments on Cheap China Svengalis.

Must a deck be like, good quality? I totally believe that if u can handle it well, and the point of the effect gets across, DONE.

So what if the deck is good and the magician's technique is flawless? I've had a magician or two do very impressive effects for me (i won't mention where). Good.. But *yawn*. No wow factor. Serious. Their body language is like 'Hey. Wanna see my magic technique?'

Shouldn't it be 'Hey. Wanna be amazed?'

Some should join a Toastmaster Club. That'd help them a lot.

Anyway, back to topic. Bicycle svengali = later.

no. professionalism is about the person, but the stuff a person uses reflects on him. Impression is important.

if one who is technically-wise poor, but is able to give ppl a gd impression abt him, i will respect him for being able to "market" himself and make himself look good. (although i will not respect him magic-wise)

even if one is skillful, i would still like to see professional items on professionals. let's say we have a very skillful magician, yet goes to a paid show in slippers and shorts etc, every1 wont care abt whether he skillful or not, but instantly gains the impression that he sux.

items create the impression of the owner because ppl tend to think the objects reflect on the owner. and impression is important, esp since marketing is all abt creating an impression.

of course there are other stuff which play a part in professionalism, but dont settle for poor stuff! get a complete image...

The impression which lennart green left us was an untidy, unruly magician when he first handled his cards. But in the end, he's has this professionalism in him even though he handle the cards in a unruly or untidy manner.

Of course we don't go in further as in dressing, i believe an idiots know when to dress. But comparing what to dress and a deck to perform, that's way too far offset. I think you agree with me on this.

Alamak. I typed for nearly a half hour! 3 posts came up? Anyway, i agree with Winder. And thanks for the directions everyone. Really appreciate it. B)

PS. I saw this somewhere. Food for thought. 'Magic is not the display of technique, but rather, its the technique of display.' Dunno who said this. Bah.

*Knock* *Knock* We are talking about DECKS here lol.. Not the dress code by the way... image is another things and props is another things.. you think everyone is doing paid performance issit .. and you thing everyone is rich to get expensive stuff ah lol~ so if people wan to find some cheap deck do do the effect is laright with me if they do it well and eventually get a paid gigs I think they will get a bettre quality deck... ;)

barney, its ok. this is called a forum for a reason.


winder, that is his own personal style, and his handling (which looks naturally him) reflects of his person.

but surely performers dun want to be known as being "cheap".


illusionist, im not making a false analogy between decks and dressing. they are both accessories which create an impt impression.

and u dun have to be rich to pay a few more dollars for a good quality, professionally-looking deck.

and theres no way u can successfully market urself to do paid gigs looking that way.

Well if you think you are cheap when holding a cheap deck, then you are cheap. But if you think you still have a value when holding a cheap deck, you still have that value in you. People might "Yeeks, Cheap deck magicians, but when they see you performing something which copperfield can do (Grandfather Aces)" They might be impressed instead.

It's how you think the way you are, don't think of how others think about you, if you think you are good, YOU ARE. If you are think you are bad, then you are bad. So overall it's just the mentality, so arguing over a Cheap deck and a Expensive deck is just a small case.

But you can't say that USING a cheap deck pushes your professionalism down.

A few dollars to you may be nothing but to some others who is not that well off is alot that wat I try to mean.. And I know wat you going to say next.. If you no money then don't learn magic right lol~ :P

correct.

and winder, if ppl really do grandfathers aces like that, i suppose it will just make copperfield look bad in their eyes thats all. cos it has been imitated by some "super non-professional".

to the performer, yes, its just mentality. but, what the audience thinks is very important. and yes, performers do and should care abt their image.

using a cheap deck does not push ur professionalism down, cos i see no way how some1 using it can be considered a true professional (hence there is no professionalism to begin with).

Then why do i see you saying that using a cheap deck pushes your professionalism down, it doesn't really affect unless you care about it so much. Overall the audience is going to care about is your performance at the very end, did you make them feel entertained, not "oh cool, that performer has a tux and a very rare deck which i haven't seen it before".

If you wanna say about disgracing copperfield, you are actually doing his effect in your own style, using a different deck. I find there's nothing wrong with using a cheaper deck to do a professional effect, unless you really mind it so much, then i am sad to say that it's not necessary afterall. As long you obtain the correct reaction and the mentality of the audience, you've done it.

Gordie Crap lah not so much money to buy bikes or so so call pro stuff you ask people not to learn magic... wow I wonder the first magician who does magic uses bikes or those expensive deck.. since you say that come on get a jerry nuggets and see if you perfromances skill is as good as lee asher.. lol come on you get money from your parents and you don't even know how hard is to earn that five bucks lah kid... try get screw 8 hours a day to earn that 50 bucks and you will know wat I mean... :mellow:

YES! i do mind abt image (dont u?), im saying it is impt, maybe not neccesary, but should something we should care about (cos the audience do). of course, the audience certainly will not care ONLY abt the image.

and pls illusionist, im not some spoilt kid u make me out to be, i get average allowance, pay for most stuff myself (food, transport, hp, magic, etc), and do try and earn some $ here and there where possible.

and yes, i have worked for abt 10 hours per day $4 an hr. i know how it feels like, but i noe where to spend it.

Then i think the last sentence which you said actually says everything if i am right.

You think who you are, you think who you will become. I believe overall barney is actually asking for directions which you actually replied something about cheap decks and etc.
I think this conclude everything:

Every people have different views on what decks they want to use, and how they present it with that decks of theirs. So i think we cannot just stick with your opinion of "NOT PROFESSIONAL" cause they aren't using correct standards of cards.

If it's Ropes ? Coins ? Rubber Band ? are you going to care about what kind do magicians use ?

I use shoe laces as a sub for ropes and make a joke out of it.

im saying to get something decent, alladins will do fine for decks, and look pro enuf, but surely not some china-made decks...

Whoa. That was fast. The moving of the posts were like Lee Asher's Riccochet. (from spectators viewpoint). Bam here, bam there. *blurred* :blink:

Gotta agree with Winder. Let's not criticise or scrutinise magicians with cheap decks. Some street 'pros' (in America) can only afford a cheapo deck (u know, those 2 and 3 card monte guys sitting in the alleys) I call that great card and audience control. They are professionals in their own right!

Food for thought.. What if one day, you're on a plane wif your friends, then they suddenly whip out the SIA/ Qantas/ budget airlines deck that was given to them and ask you, "Hey! Entertain us with your magic!" Will you say, "Erm, not now.. I only do magic with MY oh-so-precious Bicycle/Tally-Ho/Bee deck.. No cheapo SIAs for me. Let's find one of those decks in the duty-free stores later when we land, shall we?" :g:

Weird, right?

Would you perform for them in that situation? (i'm referring to those who rely much on the above mentioned USPCC cards)

From what i remb on TV, Lennart Green used a non-professional deck for his FISM act (i think. i may be totally wrong here. BAH. whatever.)

actually i do.

and regarding shoe laces, if u make it out to be a joke and intentional, and u have pro stuff to back u up, its fine. (just as tommy wonder uses some wierd looking sock-purse and it instantly looks comical)

Yes you can say that China decks do erm... But i still did magic with it once, reaction was still the same as i normally do with bikes. No one in that room is gonna care about you holding what kinda of deck, cause in the mind of a layman. THAT IS ONLY A DECK OF PLAYING CARDS, so it doesn't matter.

i was expecting this. :)

being able to perform magic impromptu, upon request, is also a trademark of a professional. i would perform, as jeff mcbride suggested during IF03, be a 24/7 magician.

image does matter to them, whether consciously or not.

ppl do judge by appearances, and it would be foolish to ignore this.

What appearances ? We are talking about decks here dude, DECKS.
and layman wouldn't care what kinda of decks are you using, cause we are magicians, our only goal is to perform to layman. But for your mentality is that you are still "i am going to impress magicians as well" with the decks and etc.

Cause like what i said previously in the mind of a layman "IT'S ONLY A STACK OF PLAYING CARDS". This is something which all layman do and think, unless they are a frequent gambler themselves.

Cards are cards to laymen.

Who's gonna say "Is that a BICYCLE deck? You must be a pro. Not like that guy i saw earlier using that CHINA deck."

They're just gonna think and say to themselves, "Ok. He's got cards. A trick's headed our way. Better watch his hands. U watch his mouth. Later the card i chose is found there." :lol: (just making fun of the ACR)

But on the serious side, i believe a magician should be able to handle any deck, no matter where they are. Now, THAT to me, is professionalism.

Anyone one noticed that it's a 3 to 1 debate here? Maybe 2 to 2? :huh:

what u use or do contribute to appearances.

and my mentality isnt as such, in contrary, i think magicians will be impressed if u can do magic with decks which are dirty and sticky, cannot fan or spread well, etc.

cheap cards will look cheap, and layppl will know that. u dun need a card expert to tell u which cards are good and which are bad.

yes, i have stated that earlier in response to ur question. but surely there is more to professionalism than that?

i have never said not to perform with a borrowed deck or upon request, in fact, i said earlier (dodging ur trapping question) to DO SO!

I ever let audience handles bicycles, and they handle them just like $1 cards, they drop it, crimp it, bend it. They don't really care, trust me.

Layman wouldn't care about the cards that you are using, cause even if i give you a jerry nugget and they might not have seen it before. You can't do a single magic, it's still back to square 1. If you still persist about cheap decks is for cheap magicians, then it's fine with me.

I might be cheap then, i wouldn't care much as long i aim to get a routine done perfectly like what other professional does.

If you are still thinking about cheap decks blar blar blar, think of this "Put yourself in a layman shoe, you don't know a single stuff", you only know you want to see MAGIC and not the quality of a cards.

Some magician use cheap decks sometime, so if you don't like it, i don't see there's a need to make a fuss out of it. Respect their decision

"You can't do a single magic, it's still back to square 1."

im talking abt having the traits of a professional, so thats beyond the boundary of this topic.


"If you still persist about cheap decks is for cheap magicians, then it's fine with me."

im not exactly saying that, im just saying cheap decks IMPLY that the performer is cheap. and implication is bad enough.


"If you are still thinking about cheap decks blar blar blar, think of this "Put yourself in a layman shoe, you don't know a single stuff", you only know you want to see MAGIC and not the quality of a cards."

i have already said earlier that even a layperson can tell if a deck is cheap. someone said this (cant rmb who) : ppl cant tell whats right, but they can tell whats wrong.


"Some magician use cheap decks sometime, so if you don't like it, i don't see there's a need to make a fuss out of it. Respect their decision"

i do respect their decisicion, i respect ppl's decision. but this is a forum, we voice our OPINIONS. and its a given opinions will clash, thats what makes each of us diff from one another.

if i like or dun like something, i will say it. and i am very frank about what i say (and sorry, this might not always sound pleasant). and rmb that this did not begin as a "fuss", and i did not intend it to be. im not some fussy person, but i will defend my opinions (just as all of us are and will, and its not wrong, but in fact good to make a discussion real).

and its natural to defend as much as (or more to be on the safe side) than u are being attacked. therefore, this "fuss" isnt one-sided, so i think its unfair to blame it totally on me. in fact, i dont even think this is wrong, i think its good to have clash of OPINIONS on a FORUM, to allow understanding of the various schools of thought and for ppl to discern FOR THEMSELVES. (im not forcing my opinion on anyone, just voicing out for ppl to make an INFORMED CHOICE)

Aiyah. Lag lah. When i replying to post 'x', u already replying to post 'x+1'.

With reference to ur quote, maybe its how i was brought up. Btw, i'm a musician. I'm thrown into situations where i have to perfom my best, though i'm using another person's guitar. I got ur point.

It took me a while to understand that, to laymen, its not my fast solos and my super expensive guitar that count. Its the sound and music i produce that matters most to them.

It transcribes into my magic too. It's not the power card handling or the smooth, quality deck that matters to laymen. It's the magic! :D

I've seen some Singaporean pros play beautifully, using some China guit. (alamak. why always China?) in fact, i'm now paying less attention to the guit, more to the music. I've carried this mentality over when i started magic.

I've been involved in magic MUCH shorter than anyone of you. Yet i know what qualities are called for in a magician. My showmanship came 1st, then i started working on my sleights. Very odd..

China deck or not, its the showmanship! Your showmanship dictates your professionalism.

showmanship is a large part of professionalism, and i do not support anyone neglecting this, as of any part of professionalism. in fact, ppl who know me will know how importantly i view presentations, showmanship, theory and psychology. a personal image to me is part of presentation. in magic, its more than just routines and sleights, a complete image is equally (if not more) impt.

rmb, u are "an actor playing a role of a magician", and a good actor will pay attention to details to make something "real". and a real magician must have certain aura around him, so duplicate that!

having a good personal image completes this greater image of professionalism.

an image will add to ur presentation and showmanship, which also affects ur image, so i would say both are important.

News update! (for those who just tuned in)


Gordie - Firmly believes that image is a must.
He cares about what goes into magic.

Winder - Firmly believes that the effect is most important.
He cares about what comes out of magic.

Barney - Watches in amazment at the rate that the above guys were typing.
He doesn't know whether to care or not.


:off:


Good nite folks!

BLATANT MISREPRESENTATION! (as always...)

I believe what goes IN and OUT of magic is impt! when did i EVER say presentation/showmanship/effects/sleights are UNIMPORTANT? when did i EVER say so? in fact, i EXPLICITLY stated i care about a full and complete image of magic,

i say that image portrayed of a performer is IMPORTANT, but i never said it was a MUST. if i did, please PROVE IT. this whole "FUSS" started cos i was accused of saying it was a neccessity.

the only truth in

"Gordie - Firmly believes that image is a must.
He cares about what goes into magic."

is that i care abt what goes into magic. but its a HALF truth, it EXCLUDES the FACT that i believe that many OTHER things in magic are IMPORTANT.


and yes, i'll soon be turning in too, unless there is a need for me to stay on.

Eh. Cool down lah. It's meant to be a joke. (a really bad one)

I know you care about the art. It's just that its an issue of perspective. Maybe you're thinking that 'hey, these guys dun really understand what i believe in'. True. But then again, maybe Winder's thinking the same way too?

If we see magic, including flourishes, as an art (i hope u do too. then again, i hope all of us do too), remember this:

Art is subjective by nature.

Your meat, my poison. My China deck of cards, your scrap pieces of paper. Your Bicycle, my Gold Nugget. etc.. (over-exaggerating again. sorry.)

No two artists ever see the same picture the same way.

Just as some painter believes that painting black and white is the ultimate way to express himself, one comes along with a colored painting, saying that the painting he has is the ultimate masterpiece of paintings. Same idea here in magic.

Even in painting, i know some artists are against the use of plastic-bristled brushes. They feel that only cheapos use them. Some believe that they need a studio, proper lighting, beautiful paint, top-notch brushes and a good canvas. Others, well, simply need a piece of paper, and a pencil only.

Both have the same goal. To express themselves, not to have a war on whether all that equipment is really necessary. For everyone to go on arguing on this, would only split the magic community into two.

The roads we take maybe different, but our destination is the same.

I hope the above metaphor briefly explains all that has happened. Ok Gordie. Its only the two of us in this thread. Gd nite to ya.

agree. we are all just pushing for our opinions. (and thats good)

yea, gd nite.

Now THAT was a very entertaining discussion.

There should be more of this kind of thing in SMC.

Not quarelling, but a discussion of opinions.

Good job guys!

A good magician never blames his cards.

Just like a good carpenter never blames his tools...

Aiyo, different people have diiferent views, why talk about something that has no results in the end?

Relax man...

Image and effect both are essential, it's up to the magician to decide for themselves on various situations. Be flexible. ;)

- Ling

Yea.. What you believe is an image, you want the audience to believe that you are a professional, but i don't see the relationship between a DECK and professionalism. I think we are going a little off, cause the last thread was only about DECK, yes deck that's it. Nothing more to add.

When i see a performance, what i wanna see is their performance, their routine and the way they present. I don't look at every performer deck and say oh thats a "Jerry" oh thats a Eagle 101, it's a lousy deck, means he's a lousy performer and he doesn't have this "Aura".

It all comes down to 1 word, Just perform when you got a deck in your hand, i don't care what deck i have. If there's a need i use that deck to do the performance, to get the effect. Something like Michael Ammar said "As long you get the things done, just do it in your way" So a little off topic but i believe it can be said as "As long you get the things done, just use any decks which you like"

You said this is a forum, YES, Opinions .. Maybe not, cause i was giving room in all my post, Yes there's a possibility of using Cheap and Expensive cards. But all your posts meaning was like "NO NO CHEAP CARD" Scroll up and you will understand.

I rest my case, there's always room for expensive or cheap cards, image of a magician is how you act as 1, if i give you a good deck and you don't behave like 1. Then even if you wear a Tux and you behave like a hooligan it all comes back to square1. So the image of a magician is how you behave like 1 and not rely on a deck to deem fit yourself as a MAGICIAN.

I think you will understand what i am trying to say.
I rest my case, unless new opinions comes up, i will still say that Expensive or Cheap cards always have rooms for magicians.

getting nowhere..

My opinion:

Decks, ok. If u use a cheap deck , lets say a allaidn rather than bikes, it WONT matter all hte difference is air holes. Layperson wont know how much the deck cost unless u tell them. If one day the bucks uses the china tiger decks, and do their madonnas as fast as now i would still respect them. IT DOESNT MATTER AS LONG AS UR MAGIC IS THERE!

Dressing. Bucks filmed their vids wearing t-shirts and khaki pants. ANYONE ever put them down? NO. If u said we were afriad of them tahts why we didnt put them down,You r wrong. we respect them. They look good in the shirts.

-peace-

I must include peace.

i have talked abt using alladin in the first page of this topic. obviously u have not been following. my concern is against CHEAP cards which look cheap, and i think alladin is perfectly fine.

regarding dressing, obviously a magician would not care, but the public would as i have said often enough.

winder, I have said specifically that upon request, even with cheap cards, DO IT! im not saying ppl who use cheap cards will not be considered as a magician, but in order to complete a certain image, use better ones.

Ling, i agree with u totally that a good craftsman never blames his tools, in fact, i use it often. but in the eyes of a public, they want to see a good craftsman with good tools, it doesnt mean the craftsman is unable to perform with worse tools, but good tools will make him look professional, wouldn't they? and of course, i never said anything abt blaming the tools. i said that a magician shud be able to perform with whatever tools he has.

Well, i agree with both point of view. Like what Gordie has put it. Appearances are somewhat important, especially in such a stereotype world we like in now. Apperance and how you project yourself to your audience is important for the FIRST impression. Like what someone said earlier about Lennart Green, he looks shabby and untidy, but he wowed many people. That doesnt make him a lesser performer.

Cheap decks expensive decks, do not make a difference to me. If you're talking about decks, what makes a difference to me especially in a paid performance is that if that deck is DIRTY or Presentable looking. Can you imagine, you do an effect in the resturant with a box so dirty that it turned yellow and brown and the cards has dirty patches on it, ewwww, i dont think they will have their appetite.

I personally uses cheaper deck, what i believe is that as long as produces the same results as Bikes or whatever decks, its fine. Some China deck, have quite good feel. But of cos they get dirty VERY VERY fast.

hence what I am trying to say is that a deck of cards (not the brand) and how you portray yourself is very important for first impressions.
Prices of decks or brands made in India China or US doesnt make much difference to me, its the feel and control i have for the card that matters most.

hey that line sounds very familiar.. the one about the craftsman blaming his tools. where have I seen it before? ^_^

wow, that was one great discussion. everyone should be entitled to their own opinion, as long as they have good reason to believe in it, so I'm glad (and quite surprised actually) that no flaming went on ;)

basically
it does'nt matter if u hae 100000000000 dollar deck
like they always would say
u won't be the bucks even if u have jerrys
it all boils down to your skill
really man
be flexible
gordie, if u think that the public would care on how a magicians dress and what type of cards he uses, then so be it
but u gotta know
not everybody in the public thinks that way
neither do very single magician think that there's a certian image to complete
just leave it as it is
every magician has his or her style
some would want to act as ordinary people
while some would want to wear a black cloak walking aorund hiding his or her face
so yeah
chill a little
tats all i've got to say :!!:

peace
i must include peace. :g: