Hi all, I recently read thru a thread from the "Cards & Cheaters" group and it was quite well damaging to penguin's repute... it's like 23 emails long so PM me with ur email if u wan to read it lah.

why don't you just post it here? I just ordered the Super sharpie from them and was very upset when it came last Friday but it wasn't in a very good condition. Ink seeped out, making a mess on the instructional sheet and making a mess on the pen as well.

they've yet to reply me on an exchange... :angry:

Actually I prefer to order from magicwarehouse cheaper shippment but recently the good take quite long to arrived dammn... :angry:

Ok lah anything for u Ning hehheh... just to prepare everyone... this one's gonna be looooooong! After much cut+paste... I've tried my best to modify ppl's emails just so tt the bots dun spam them! I hope it's in logical sequence to u all... I've taken out the parts where they talk abt McD and George Bush being a clown... (which he is quite good at btw).

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: coco <coco@.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:21:49 +0200
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com

Indeed I do agree that penguin is to magic what McDo is to food... with
the down sides (giving away professional secrets too easily... speaking of
threads everywhere so now anyone knows how any levitation is done [and
don't tell me they knew before... there is a huge difference between
knowledge and suspicion] ; the good point of penguin is their fast
shipping and their reliability... I've tried lots of online shops and I
never had that good services... but once again I agree 100% ... their
attitude can cause harm to the art of magic... not that the secret is the
most important thing in a magic trick, but if people know the secret, or
part of it, they will be more enclined to ruin the effect the magi
performs for them, either by telling how it's done (forgetting about the
performance part of the magic trick, which is as important as the secret),
or by having the "I know how it's done" mood, and then not being enjoyable
to perform for.

Coco

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:35:13 -0400 (EDT), j scafidi <scafidi_7@.ca>
wrote:

> they are the mcdonald's of the magic world, the great satans of sorcery.
> forget them, buy local.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jand131793@.com <jand131793@.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:55:58 EDT
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com


I think that Penguin Magic has alot of stuff, and some of there prices may be lower. In addition they have many satisified customers, with the free shipping and all.

HOWEVER, I must agree with Reader21. I have not, and never will purchase from them. Although many people have copied videos, AND I EVEN SPOKE TO OZ PEARLMAN about it, but in my opinion Penguin is publicly stealing from other companies and magician YOU TAKE A LIFETIME TO INVENT THERE TREASURES OF MAGIC.

In fact when I first met Lee Asher(who by the way is a very nice guy) he was extermely upset at the fact that he said Oz Pearlman or Penguin was giving out of demo of his Thunderbird for FREE.

They may, have low prices, and they may have free shipping, but those video demos are just not right at all.

-Josh


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: reader21@.com <reader21@.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:31:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com

I have not, and never will, purchase anything from Penguin Magic. Their "low prices" don't even begin to compensate for the fact that they have a nasty habit of ripping off other people's work and peddling it under a new name, especially in their Instant Downloads section...

What are you looking to purchase?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: j scafidi <scafidi_7@.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:00:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com


McDude, macdonald's isn't food. it's a cheap assed idea designed to insult your intelligence. My mom's hamburgers never tasted like that crap. It'll kill you. Watch the movie.

I buy local because the guys in my local magic shop are decent hardworking people. They don't rip people off. They have distinct personalities. They take the time to go through things that i don't understand, they let me hang around their shop with the boys and learn stuff. I prefer the human interaction. I drive over an hour to get that interaction and i will continue to do so. I do buy some things over the internet every now and again but not from Penguin. I don't need my magic homogenized.

Bennett Cohen <bennettjc61@.com> wrote:

Buying "local" if local costs more money equals an act of charity (unless buying local involves hanging around a shop and learning some stuff from the boys). The concept of buying local is becoming archaic in the world of internet shopping.

I am a big fan of McDonalds. Big Macs are great in moderation (like everything). I also hear you can make "Misled" gaffs out of their straws.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: coco <coco@.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:46:30 +0200
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com

Hi,

First of, sorry for this long mail.. you don't have to read it all (scoop
the center paragraph if you like ;)) I just wanted to try to express
myself.

Thanks for sharing your point of view, it's always nice to see other's
opinion.

However it appears to me that if I follow the way of thinking that you
shared, you would say, for another topic, that the people who are to blame
are not those who construct biological weapons but those who use them. In
another case : who is responsible for the cigarette smoke a child inhale?
The child? His parent who smokes? The cigarette dealer? The producer? In
fact the problem raised is to know where the responsibility of one begins.

I would agree with you if we were in a world where people are responsible
and know how to be adults. But we are not. I could talk about it for
hours, but for the sake of shortness I will just talk about the fast foods
and magic.
People (and I think it's even more true for Americans, who have a big
problem of obesity) just don't eat in an healthy way.... But this is only
true if we don't get them the choice. Fast foods don't give this choice
(are you many to go to fast foods and eat only salads, I doubt). They only
think business, and don't care about the health of their customer... I
don't think they have even tried once to inform their customers about the
risks they take by eating fast foods all the time.
"Fast magic" is the same : they care only about business, and it hurts me
a lot when I see that when you go to the homepage of most online magic
shops, you can see immediately what are TT, IT, etc. Now anyone who has
internet can learn the most subtle method of accomplising a trick
(technically) in minutes, without even to search for it!

I don't ask fast foods to become high class restaurants (I enjoy fast
foods too sometimes :) ), and I don't ask for "Fast magic" shops to become
available to only those who have won the FISM, but I think a little more
responsibility (like not being obvious about what TT or IT are) would be
welcome.

I'm a bit blue concerning humans I must admit... But I think that we are
not in a world of responsible people. People can't make choice, and when
they do they don't choose smartly.

We should not even have to choose between something that is made to be
noxious and something else... Nothing should be made to be noxious (fast
food, cigarette, etc.)

One last thing : sometimes we can't choose : I don't know how it is
elsewhere but here in France teenagers are more and more smokers. For a
teenage in a group of teenagers who smoke, it's very hard to refuse
because they might not be part of the group anymore if they don't follow
(I don't say that it's better to be part of this kind of group).
In another case, most of you use the same Operating System, produced by
Bill Gates... Few people (fortunately more and more) can choose to have
another OS on his computer. I personally am using Linux, but few can
handle that (and usually people can't "choose" to use linux since it
requieres a lot of motivation in informatic to use it) This leans to a
world where almost everyone has the same OS, sharing the same virus all
the time, having to pay for their OS and for most of the softwares and
games they use, which occasionally are bugged (for the record Linux is
free, stable, and secured... I never had to reboot my computer once in 8
years...)

I wrote this long mail to share my worries of the times that come. In a
few years, most of magician's secrets will be exposed, and I don't think
it's positive for our art (as I already said, not much because in the
secrets relies the magic, but in the enthousiasm of the spectators relies
the magic, and knowing the secrets decrease their enthousiasm). And there
is no excuse for those who cause harm to a community, wether it concerns
health, art, or science.

I'd be glad to hear anyone's opinions on what I've just said, let me know
(nicely if you shall) if I shouldn't make those types of mail. Anyway I'll
post more about magic in the times coming.

Coco

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John <john.long@.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:43:33 -0000
Subject: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com

I must be missing something - I am not aware of penguin stealing
anything, nor have I heard any specifics stated in this thread.

Is it stealing when PM demo's an expanded shell with a Troy Hooser
routine, but references Troy's video? or is that advertising for
Troy? For me, it was an ad for Troy, I bought his Destroyer's book.

Is it stealing when PM uses a manufacture's demo tape?

I've not notice PM relabeling tricks, they seem to use the same name
for a trick as others, but I'm a newbee, and might not recognize it
in all cases.

Further, at what point is it intellectual infringement? I see the
same tricks in Sankey's "Tricks any one can do" as I see in
Wilson's "Complete course in Magic", and I saw in books 40 years ago.
At some point, a trick becomes part of the public domain. But at what
point does this happen? I don't know, does someone know? What is
consider fair, and what is not? Does C_N_C have a stance on this?

I'm saying PM is faultless, but I am asking what the specfic concerns
are. I have used PM quite a bit - their prices are the best, even
before the 10% discount, and before the free shipping. I can live
with the fact that the shipping can be up to 2 weeks; and they have
been very fair with me when orders were messed up.

What I don't like are some of the online dealers that charge
anomalously high prices. Not just higher then PM, but way higher than
the norm.

As far as a birck and mortar business, I went to one last week. They
could only demonstrate a color changing silk for me - whoopee. None
the less, I will continue to look for a local store. But "local" may
mean a 30 minute or more drive.

John

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: reader21@.com <reader21@.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:24:37 EDT
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com


Knowing that not everyone knows this stuff, hence

john.long@spcorp.com said:
"I must be missing something - I am not aware of penguin stealing anything, "


"We do sell knock-offs, and we don't think they're wrong or bad for magic." - Maxwell of Penguin

Here's a list of the items I'm aware of:


Colin Gilberts "Linking Lifesavers"
This effect typically sells for around around 40 bucks, penguin is selling a knock-off for 15 that they say they have permission to market...and they probably do, just not from the creator who has been asking and begging them to stop.


Slydini "Slydini Silks"
Penguin sold cheap versions of Tony Slydini's silks; there is no copyright on the silks, so that's no biggie. But they published a routine with it that was, to my understanding, nearly identical to Slydini's and used his name in the marketing, both of which are currently "owned" by L&L (they hold the copyright to the name and routine at the moment) with no permission. After a huge uproar, they changed the name to "Sly Silks," but left the routine the same (to my understanding).


The Perfect Shells
Nearly perfect copy of the Vernet shells, though made with crappier material. No noticable improvements, refinements of modifications. Continuing the trend, the accompanying routine is copied directly from Tom Osborne's "The Shell Game" and Frank Garcia's "All in a Nutshell" without credit.



Instant Download Section Specifically


Snap Change - Ed Marlo move, made horrifically popular as of late by Blaine...doubt they have Marlo's estates permission to explain this...


Quantum Bandits - This is Crazy Man's Handcuffs, as published in Tarbell and greatly improved upon by Michael Ammar.


Out Of This World - Invented by Paul Curry.


The Daley Show - Dr. Daley's Last Trick, invented by..well...Dr. Daley.

The fact that these effects now have credits on the penguin page is a testament to the magicians who kicked and screamed when classic effects where being presented to newbies, via instant download for $5, as "new effects." To my knowledge, these aren't improvements or different handlings, they're the SAME effects published by OTHER people. These don't fall into the realm of "public domain" effects, there are acknowledged creators here.

Also, variations on some of these tricks have been published before, that I admit. There are COUNTLESS variations of Out Of This World...but they all have some modification, some change, that makes them their publishing worthwhile...i.e., in Regals "Out Of This Borough" the cards seperate into suits as well as colors...

As I said, I've never purchased anythign from them, including these instant downloads. But, knowing the methods of the originals and watching the previews, I can see no difference in the effect. I can replicate EXACTLY what they're selling using EXACTLY the previously existing method.

This is not improvement, modification, alteration, etc. This is thievery. This a company that puts making a buck over and above the artform of conjuring. That is, I suppose, their right. But, it's also the reason I (and MANY MANY MANY other magicians) will not purchase from them.

As a sidenote, i've also stopped purchasing Sankey magic since he teamed up with Penguin. Anything Sankey I buy from this point forward will be purchased used, as I won't give my moeny directly to him as long as we works with PM.

They're not the only online store that does this, they're not the only publisher than does this. And, to be fair, not all of these things were "created" by PM, but they do endorse, sell and profit from the sales of this tripe. You asked specifically about PM and this is my opinion/explanation.

E


*Information gleaned, aside from my memory, from the following public threads:

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/ulti...t=001346#000000

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/ulti...t=001167#000000

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/ulti...t=001148#000000

http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/ulti...t=001221#000000

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtop...=79805&forum=96

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtop...=80742&forum=96

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: j scafidi <scafidi_7@.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:18:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com


Talk to Whit Haydn of School for Scoundrels. They have also ripped of "the Golden Shells" from his company. They even tried to use the same name!!

The biggest selling point that i've heard as for why people like Penguin is their fast shipping. Personally, i'd rather order from a reputable source and have it take a few days longer. C'mon we're not a bunch of impatient 5 year olds here, we can wait a couple of weeks for stuff to show up in the mail, can't we?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: reader21@.com <reader21@.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com

The "advantages" to shopping Penguin that I've heard are, as j scafidi pointed, the fast shipping and the low prices.

Basically, Penguin is perfect for you if you demand instant or near-instant gratification and refuse to a penny more than you have to for anything...

In some ways, I wonder if this is a generational problem? This is coming from someone who is part of the generation that I see having the problem (I'm 25). My generation has become accustomed to instant downloads, file-sharing and the immediate, free or inexpensive access to just about any kind of information we want.

I don't think we've developed the same value for things that our magical predecessors had. Companies like Penguin capitalize on this, feeding it and encouraging it. "Why should I go down to the local shop and pay $10 more for this DVD when I can get it from Penguing?" This was equated with charity in another reply due to, I guess, spending more than you absolutely have to just to support your local scene.

Coming, as I do, from a youth spent in the hiphop culture, I long ago adjusted to supporting a local scene as opposed to feeding the national corporation machine. That being said, I still sometimes have to fight to urge to go get something at a site like Penguin faster and for less money. In the end, that doesn't make me who I want to be, so I don't do it.

I say it doesn't make me who I want to be, meaning that I don't beleive people hold the same value for an item if they get it super fast and extremely cheap. If I pay $5.00 for a secret then, neat, it's a $5.00 secret. I may or may not give it the due diligence it needs through reading, learning, scripting and rehearsing...I mean, if it get's flubbed up, it was just $5.00...

However, if I pay $75.00 for the same secret, you can bet your ass I'm going to study it and rehearse and practice it, not going to let $75.00 go to waste!!

Anyway...I'm rambling and avoiding my job...Talk to you all later!!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: John <john.long@.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:47:28 -0000
Subject: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com

Reader21: Thanks for the reply. I have returned to magic in just the
last 5 months after a nearly 40 year hiatus - so I am not as
connected to this information as you apparently are.

I certainly want to honor intellectual rights, but other than your
response, I would not have known, specifically.

A question that remains is at what point does a "knock off" become
acceptable, and not infringement. You mentioned OOTW, I saw that in
the early 70's, should the creater still have "rights" to something
that over 30 years old? It doesn't work that way with patents.
Then there's what seems to be many generics tricks: coin matrix,
Invisible Decks.

When Mike Amar teaches the Down's(sp) palm is that infringement.
Probably not, since I assume Down(sp) is dead. But even if the
inventor is alive, how long should someone be able to claim
intellectual rights? Does it depend on whether we are talking about
the "trick"/gaff vs. the routine vs. the patter?

I would appreciate hearing some well thought out ideas on what is a
proper "code of ethics" for magicians.

Thanks
John


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: CLIVE WELLER <clive.weller@.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:09:56 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: [c_N_c] Re: Buying from Penguin Magic?
To: c_n_c@.com


Dear all:

I have been in magic for some sixty years now but have only just returned to it in a serious manner.

As far as I am concerned there has always been a gentlemans agreement that if you invented it - it is yours. A company does not invent tricks, routines and sleights. However, an individual does and I think he has the rights to this, provided he publishes the details.

Fred Robinson was the best exponent of the riffle pass that I have ever seen, he even described in great detail the workings in Lewis Ganson's 'Routined Manipulation'. However, at no time did Fred try to claim it as his.

Vernon never claimed that which was not his nor did any of the greates.

If a magic shop cannot survive on the people that invent and give permission to sell thier creations then that shop has no business in being in business.

I could go on and on

Regards

Clive A Weller


j scafidi <scafidi_7@.ca> wrote:



Talk to Whit Haydn of School for Scoundrels. They have also ripped of "the Golden Shells" from his company. They even tried to use the same name!!

The biggest selling point that i've heard as for why people like Penguin is their fast shipping. Personally, i'd rather order from a reputable source and have it take a few days longer. C'mon we're not a bunch of impatient 5 year olds here, we can wait a couple of weeks for stuff to show up in the mail, can't we?

yikes... this is some pretty serious stuff :(

hmmm... what's the general conscences? Who thinks we ought to boycott penguin magic? <_<

I dunno man... haha... but seems like alot of ppl noe abt it too. it's not just one person rambling.

btw i think i hold the record for the longest post on this forum eh Morphine? B)

Ning... I just read the description of ur super sharpie... they did say it was "self-inking" :P anyway they'd prolly change it for u lah.

It's a hassle makanmonkey. I have to ship it back to the States on my own cost <_< Anyway, there are some friends here in this forum who are dealers, so might as well help the 'local economy'... no loss if we don't order from PM *shrug*

Ning u got a pt... how bout we do like collective orders every month? im sure it'll b cheaper for them dealers to ship stuff over in bulk too ;)

Yeah, I think that's a good constructive idea you got there B)

Maybe we can collate a wishlist (deadline at end of the month) and maybe Cynwell or Magicdow can process the orders for us :P

What do you think, you guys?

Cool hahaha I just ask magicdow to order hot lead for me hahahahha :lol: A good idea to collect a wish list and we can also shared out the shippment fee hahaha... And wat more Magicdow lives at tampines and making my life so much easier when collecting the stuff from him hahahaha cool... B)

frankly, i still cannot see what's going on..
PM did nothing wrong, if they are saying what PM did is wrong is by selling cheap magic, then again, almost every business/trade does that.

1) the one who offers the best price gets the deal, isn't that always true? They are holding a business, not an art gallery for people to admire and view their magic...

2) Infrigement in copyright, please please please, if u dare to say that, do you dare to swear u r so upright and not ever have A SINGLE pirated software/vcd/cd at your house? Or do u dare to say u have never bought a single imitated product?
PM is doing the same, selling pirated stuff of other original works <-- TRUE
BUT, we are consumer that also frequent plc that sells pirated stuffs, not true?
and we buy those pirated things as well, dont we? what makes magic so special that it's "Infrigement in copyright" but not software? :rolleyes:

3) RIP OFF, if u think it's a rip off, just kindly don't buy it, isnt that simple?
to add on: almost every magic gimmicks is rip off if u consider the materials that produce it, but, it's the effect u r buying for, not the materials...
almost every trade sells rip off too, u wld be amazed to know that the cost price for a KFC entire meal cost lesser than SGD 50 cents, or a prada bag, a gucci clothes, but u still buy it if you want, isn't it? :rolleyes:
(They never held a knife at ur thoat to force u to get it, do they?)

4) Maxell say they sell rip off, yes, i think selling rip off is fine/normal too, it's you yourself, consumer intelligence to determine if the thing you are buying is rip-off or not, if u feel it is, kindly don't get it.
If you feel it isn't, and u get it and it turns out to be rip-off, then, u r just not exercising your intelligence in buying that product, IMHO, u can say u r stupid..haha.. :rolleyes: //I'm stupid too, in fact, everytime.. Cuzto me, every products i buy/use are rip-off, the meals i pay for, the clothes i buy, the hp bills i'm using, this list goes on and on and on....

ermz...sorry for my long post...haha.. <_<

Well, yeah... we're all entitled to our own personal thoughts and all ;) So no need for apologies!

It's just lately that I haven't been happy with Penguin Magic... their service is kinda sloppy (thank goodness they have nice Customer Service Reps) where the shipped product isn't even in decent order... not just about my Super Sharpie, but what's up with Ren's "invisible" B2Bomber...

And since we do have friends here who are dealers too, well, we can support them. :lol: And yes, you're right, ultimately it's all one's own decision on where you wanna put your money :)

By the way, great to see you online again Magi81... we were wondering where you were <grin>

sigh, i'm busy with my project, getting soon to the busier part, was trying to catcfh a breath now after all these, and venting my frustuction here..haha..

well, glad u see my point, just cant understand y ppl can support piracy but cant support penguin, it's virtually the same, but, PM is legal(most of the time is), but, piracy is not... //which makes it better

ya, if price is cheaper local, i get local too..haha..:)
but, it seems the only thing i've been doing is work, eat sleep and gf, haha..

LOL... yeah. It all boils down to personal preference and (whatever) intergrity B)

Each to his/her own :) Btw... Joining us again for the 2nd gathering? The more the merrier!!!

the only thing i dun like about PM is the plainly plain word choice on the descriptions... thread? elastic? is there any other way to make things plainer for laymans?

If you guys need a reason to hate PM.. go watch the trailer for "Showoff with Cards"

If you think it looks alright, I regret to inform you that you are suffering from a terrible sickness called "qoou-w,!"

For the cure.. visit
www.dananddave.com
OR
www.superhandz.com

Cheers :rolleyes:

Yep they really ripped stuff from everyone hahahaha.. Hopes no one buys that.. rather get the system hahhaha I will order mine when I go apply for my debit tomorrow hahaha... :D

like i say, i will never ever hate anyone :)
u deprived urself of one more choice if u hated it :)

ya, and i luv it for it's price, but, i think cyra offers cheaper price, so, i mite slowly leave PM or what, i dunno.. :P

Its very natural for people to get cheaper stuffs. Magic is a small market. If PM keeps on doing it, no one will release their ideas, indirectly killing magic. Like I said before, you'll only feel it when someone steals something from you and sells it.

yes, this i admit...

supposingly, isnt that good also?...
i noe i'm talking rubbish..but, if magic is really a preserved art, it sld not get so over-publicised now..
not only PM, alot of the shops are doing the same.....

well, perheps, we sld go back to the age where the magis invented a trick and keep it to himself/herself till before he's dead and he pass on to his next generation?..
perheps that'll be better, if not, magic will get overly exposed, and problems like this will still arise... ;)

so, meaning if i invented a trick, i will never ever sell it..
once u r selling it, u sld be prepared for all these...my 2 cent worth :)

Steady man!! Don't be to cruel to PM!! Without them I will not having a good time on "catching the "secret" of the magic that they perform in the videos demo. Frankly if u are keen to be a magician act as one! Do not splurge in props but knowledge base! Try to think really hard before buying the items, If it is a gimmick or props maybe u need to buy them if u really not sure how they do it! If possible use your creative thinking in ways how to do it! A good magician need a couple of good tricks and do not require hoardes of tricks to satisfy himself! Create your own routine and perform it as your own! Remember YOU are born to PERFORMS!

Well, just in from Lee Asher:

"Before you buy Sizzle from Penguin magic, know that it's actually created by a man named DAVID HARKEY.

David published this exact effect called SPOTWELD in a book titled SIMPLY HARKEY in 1991. Page 203 to be exact.

Sizzle is a cheap dubious imitation of SPOTWELD without any credit or permission from David Harkey.

Do yourselves a favor, and go get David Harkey's book Simply Harkey. It's filled with magic from a magician, not a boy who wants to be a magician.

SPOTWELD is the original.

Learn the printed recored before you add to it!

Asher"

How very sad of Penguin.

Also, Magic Makers, who are connected with Penguin, just put out a horrible flourishing dvd Showoff With cards, then proceeded to rip off Lee Asher's excellent Asher Twist and renaming it under the name "Ghost Kings" and you can read Asher's response at the Cafe. They also produced a rip off of Ander Moden's Healed and Sealed, and you can see Ander Moden's response to that as well in the Cafe. Sickening.

OMG Chris u like opened up my eyes to the scum that is magic makers.. haha.. i dunno man.. they also have simon lovell and sal piacente stuff so i didnt know they would stoop that low. sheesh. i checked out all e links provided at the cafe and was quite shocked. SCUM! :angry:

Actually Simon Lovell's DVD was a sort of... tribute to a book of a similar name... but still
THE MAGIC FAKER AS****** ARE A BUNCHA *** ***** **** ***** ** who *** ******** *** ******** ***** ***

YEAH! And that's what I have to say! So... DONT BUY THEIR(YEAH RIGHT!!!) STUFF!
Steve Brooks from the Cafe S*CKS!!!(Socks?)

Huron

Now they took Michael Skinner's Ultimate 3 Card Monte as well and ripped it off! Holy crap. If Michael were still alive he would be puking on the floor now.

My views still remain same, if a magician wish not to let his effects gets known/pirated, he/she sld just keep the secret to his coffins :)
Why share it? or market it?

We are all old enough to know that once a stuff get marketed, several similiar things will get marketed by competators as well... that's what the copyright are for :)
to prevent that...
If they do infrige on copyrighted stuffs, we ourselves don't need to get PM, the LAW will...:)
//Movies, software, brand names priacy...\\
//Who never bought a single imitation stuff like above before?..\\
//In actual fact, i might be inclined to belive that over 70% of those reading this reply are using a pirated OS, haha...\\

Still i believe great magicians should remain like Copperfield, who refuse to divulge any secrets of the illusion he came up with...
that i applause him :) He choosen to make his illusion remain a secret rather than get it published to earn money..(which if he choose the latter, he earn much much much more $)

basically, we must understand that the world evolve around this cycle.
Creation -> Reproduce -> Re-market under a different name...
This is the nature of life and even magic(if exposed) is of no difference.....
If PM choosen integrity over business, they would be history soon...

Copperfield buy most of his illusions. Without magicians releasing effects, even Copperfield won't be able to perform vast tricks.

he bought it?? :o
oh mine..i thought he invented it...
this changes my views of Mr Great Copperfield... :(

Even if he buy tricks is natural we all do hahhahaha...All tricks all modifiy or improve to become there own invented tricks I guess... But I respect those who created the trick first cos they really have brains and they are smart... But I still like him as a iullsionist ... he is the one who spark my interest in magic... :)

Think penguin is ok. Just they made mistakes at times.
Nothing compared to ellusionist.
Big E sux to the extreme.

Yah... he bot them but the difference is... DC has exclusive rights to the most of the stuff he performs coz they were shown to him first before the public.

hmmm... im kinda new here... so imagine the shock when i read all these on PM... actually, they do attribute the moves and sleights to thier original creators in the videos, which was quite evident in all of the PM videos i haf... bfore they teach a sleight, they actually say, "this move was created by_________ and was used originally in the trick _________" so i would not really say that they are rip-offs

whao whao hold on there... at first i thought it was crap too viewing the demo makes me sick but wait! they have updated the page and actually named the moves taught in the dvd.

THIS DVD CONTAINS MORE THAN 60+ SHOWOFF MOVES!

Here are the contents:

Level One Beginner
Thumb Fan: The basic fan for flourishers!
One Handed Fan: The cards snap into a fan while held at the fingers!
S-Fan: A flashy way to tell people you’re a “S”howoff!
Blank Fan: The faces of an entire deck disappear!
Birdy Fan: (from the genius of De’vo) A fan that seems to float above your hand!!
Knuckle Cut: Simple but very cool!
Charlier Cut: The classic one-handed cut!
Triple Charlier Cut: The Charlier for Showoffs!
False Charlier Cut: The Classic Charlier cut, but retains the order of the deck!
Butterfly Cut: A two-handed cut that flips and twists the deck then reassembles it in one hand!
False Swing Cut: A flashy cut that impossibly retains the order of the deck!
Swing Cut w/ Card Control: Control their card to the top of the deck with a quick flourish!
Tokyo Cut: Smooth and showy!
Level Two Intermediate
Tokyo Cut False: The Tokyo Cut, but retains the order of the deck!
One Handed Faro: A tabled riffle shuffle done in one hand!
Blind Swivel Cut: (Thanks to Gerry Griffin ) Packets swinging from hand to hand!
Blind Swivel Cut 2: (Thanks to Gerry Griffin )The Blind Swivel turned on its end!
Ribbon Spread: A beautiful display!
Twin Peaks: A ribbon spread for Showoffs!
Ultimate Illogical Cut: (We reconize the amazing mind of Gianni Mattiolo) The flourish to which all others pay homage!
Faces of Sybil: (With great respect to the genius of Chris Kenner) A multiple packet, 3-D cut, that will knock their socks off!
Tiki Cut: This is what happens when you combine swing cuts and a table!
Perfect False Shuffle: You’ll fool yourself with this amazing, but difficult, shuffle!
Tabled False Cut: Three distinct cuts, yet retains the order of the deck!
In The Hands False Cut: Showoffs don’t need tables to do false cuts!
Crack Shuffle: (From the brilliant mind of Gary Oullette) The “crackle” of the deck fools ‘em every time!
Level Three Expert
Pass Cut: Puts the classic pass to good use and retains the order of the deck!
Number Two Cut: A three packet, on the table false cut that flies past everyone!
Swing, Swivel, Dribble: A swing, a swivel, and a dribble yet retains the order of the deck!
One Hand Revolution: (Brian Tudor) Starts like a charlier, then takes off!
One Hand Revolution False:(Brian Tudor) Do the Revolution with out disturbing the order of the deck!
One Hand Revolution 3: (Brian Tudor) The packets flip right over the top of the deck!
Flip Back: (From the genius of De’vo) The deck goes where no deck has gone before!
Flip Back Vanish: (From the genius of De’vo) Do the Back Flip then vanish the deck!
Jammin Cut: Fast and smooth, yet retains the entire deck order!
Card Spring: The classic, a deck flies in a stream from one hand to the other!
Inverted Card Spring: Defy gravity!
Closing the Fan: The fan snaps open then shut again, all in one hand!
Octo Cut: 2 hands + 8 packets = a Showoff masterpiece!
The Bridge: (We reconize the flourish master; Caps Casino) A 5-packet cut in a horizontal line from hand to hand!
Level Four - Master
Dr. Hatchett Cut: (Inspired by the late Dr. Casavan) A knuckle cut, cutting packets to the middle of the deck!
What Happened To Sybil?: (Brian Tudor) Need we say more?!
Hollywood Cut:(Brian Tudor) The Speed Cut with multiple rotations.
Speed Cut: (Brian Tudor) Combine the swing cut with a one handed revolution!
Blind Rotational Sybil: (We reconize the flourish master; Caps Casino) a Sybil variation with a smooth closing sequence!
Bad Habit: (Brain Tudor) A 2 handed- swivel style cut!
Ninja Color Change: A wave of the hand and the card winks out of existence!
Emperor's Fan Color Change: Visually stunning!
Ninja Change Variation: A color change with no palming?!
Snap Color Change: A one-handed color change perfect for TV!
Chameleon Color Change: (With respect to Steve Beam) Street magic’s top color change!
Thirty Second Color Change: So smooth, it’ll fool everyone!
Two Card Color Change: A grab and a flick and what once was, is no more!
Level Five - Showoff
Two Card Change Variation: A color change in mid-air!
Double Lift Under Change: Rub a card against your sleeve and it changes!
Color Change Pass: A riffle of the deck and the top card visually changes!
Hip Shot: A super, and quick version of Daryl’s Hot Shot!
Tabled Slap Color Change:(Brian Tudor) Slap a card to the table and it changes!
Tunnel Change: A card morphs as it passes through the deck!
Sloppy Double Deal: Toss a card to the table and it changes!
Control This: You’ll fool yourself with this control!
Hong Kong Throw: Far East showoffs don’t just take cards out of the box!
Flipback Combo: (From the genius of De’vo) A devastating series of cuts and flipbacks!
Awesome Blossom:(Brian Tudor) A flashy 1 handed 4 Ace production
The Hex: (Thanks to the flourish master; Caps Casino) A 6-sided, 6-packet cut!
Royal Flush Cut: A flourishy cut to a Royal Flush from a shuffled deck!
Ring Finger Scaling: Scaling made easy!
1st Finger Scaling: The cards “POP” out of the deck!
More Scaling: Distance is name of the game!


thats a whole lot of moves for $29.95 defnitely well worth the price if u dont have any of devo or brian stuffs

ren:

it doesn't make a difference if they updated the page. The issue here is them stealing Brian Tudor's moves and De'vo's moves. They ripped off almost everything from Brian Tudor's Showoff video, and took De'vo's moves and informed him only at the last moment, and others they didn't even tell De'vo at all. They blatantly stole from the real artists just to put out a video to appeal via quantity and not quality. :D In addition to that, the guy in the demo video can't even do the moves properly himself. I mean, god, was that demo video horrendous. Do you really want to take driving lessons who can't drive? :P :P

Yes, they have a TON of moves they put in the video. But their problem is that they took the moves without permission and just stuffed together everything in a jumbled manner, when the person can't even execute the moves properly. :D The price is not an issue. As I quote from someone else on another forum: would you rather be able to do say, a King Cobra (from De'vo's upcoming Cobra cut dvd) that is perfectly and beautifully executed, or a whole bunch of poorly executed, below-average flourishes? I'd go for quality over quantity. :D So I'd rather get myself some of Tudor or the bucks or De'vo's material over this dvd.

Mystical: crediting a person doesn't make it any less of a rip-off. ;) The fact is that they didn't ask for permission and that in itself is plain blatant thievery. :D Just to inform you. :D

like as ive said, they ripped it off devo and brian which is kinda gay but what i am actually trying to say is that the dvd is well worth the money for that much stuff in it.im not saying its right to steal other peoples stuff..

Me, I don't think it's well worth 30 bucks to learn a ton of moves that have been ripped off and are poorly executed, and poorly taught. can you imagine the next wave of flourishers doing horrible flipbacks like Stiff does them in the video, thinking that the way the moves are executed in the video are THE standard? :P Like I said, I prefer quality over quantity. The fact that about 99% of the dvd is stolen already gives me enough reason not to even consider it as a purchase, and in addition to that I shudder thinking how upcoming flourishers will fare relying on this dvd. It's scary. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Granted, the dvd has a ton of stuff. But as I previously mentioned, I'd rather not take driving lessons from someone who can't drive. Similarly, Mr. Guy in the Preview Video has already proved that he is nearly incompetent at flourishing (at least incompetent in the sense that he has the nerves to actually put out a dvd at his level of flourishing). Tons of moves that are poorly executed and poorly taught from a poor flourisher and poor teacher - I think I'll pass. :D :D :D Of course, you're welcome to think otherwise. :D :D :D :D

The facts -

1) Show Off from penguin is a "pirated" version of all the flourish moves from famous magi: True

2) Who publish it, Magic Makers, so, whose fault? Magic Makers: True

3) Is penguin wrong to buy it from magic makers and sell it to us?
Morally: True
Legally: False (There's no copyright, sorry if i'm wrong abt this pt though...)
Business-ly: False (So many moves for such a price, its a steal...)

4) Quality of person who taught it is poor: True(to some sense, but, if you are a green horn in flourish....i feel it's quite good...)

5) Brain tudor quality of teaching: False(Personally, his teaching sucks...he may be good at sleights but he's bad at teaching(very bad), the reason i buy ID from penguin is to see Oz teach, cuz he's a good teacher(very good)... there's a hell of difference between a good magician and a good teacher...)
- I know many guys think Oz isnt a good magi, can't comment, cuz i have nv seen him LIVE! in action before my very eyes, but, he's a good teacher at magic...
i have never failed to understand any ID/DVD that was by him... -

6) Rip-Off: definately, true, sure can get cheaper elsewhere, if u have the contact...:)

7) Buy from Tudor: False(For me only, again...bad teaching, he's good, but his teaching sucks...cuz he forgotton i'm a newbie...he has a lack of levelling...and assume everyone are good... Of course, if you guys are CLJ, Bone, Kevin, Daryl, Soloman...blar blar those magi with very very good, solid foundation in sleights, then i recommend Tudor's )

ermz...no puns intended.. B)

Devo knew bout this showoff DVD. He could not be bothered to entangle in a court case becos cost will be too high and not worth it. He made it a pt to the publisher to give credits for his moves which they did. He also disallowed any cobra cut move or variation to be published in the DVD. That's all.

exo, De'vo didn't know about it until the very last moment when they had already added everything into the dvd. They didn't ask him for permission and so De'vo couldn't be bothered. So essentially that's still sort of theivery. And they didn't tell De'vo about some other moves that they took from him and renamed (like the Hong Kong Throw, if i'm not mistaken :D :D :D )

ok ok, from some good views, at least it showed that de'vo move have some market value... :P

getting a cradle to grave....but, wondering when i wld have the time to learn them?