Hi people of SMC,

Check out this page:

it's from the budget magician! I think we can find a day to sit down and discuss about how to deal with this fellow! :angry:

-Alan-

maybe move this topic to Magical theory and philosophy or misc discussion?


yup, it's spoiling the market....30mins of magic show should be around $250-$300.......it's not rite.............yes, can talk to him, but whether he will listen is another story. If he continues his budget package, there's little thing can be done to stop him......

Check out his calendar, he is almost fully booked for every weekend in May, all the way to June.....
Woah......
I would be SO SO mighty pissed if this is my ricebowl......

Then again...the rule of thumb is "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys"....

'& pay dead peanuts, get dead monkeys' ^_^

Performing is my rice bowl and there's a lot of professional who I know, and most prob non of us will let him off, if needed I'll have to held a meeting with him, THIS IS TOO MUCH!!! :angry:

-Alan-

Actually I'm not sure if there's really anything wrong with charging such a cheap price for a magic performance, doesn't look like it's unfair competition. Perhaps you all could explain to me.

I feel if you're really good, it will show, likewise if you're not. People won't just hire someone because he/she's cheaper. They will be willing to pay a higher price for a show if it's good enough, the market for quality shows should always be there.

They will at the very least they will consider why another performer is charging higher than another. They may not hire the better performer in the end but they should at least realize the performer who charges higher would probably give a better show. I consider the hypothetical case of someone charging $1 for a magic show - I don't think he/she'll necessarily be hired much more than the $50 guy, if at all. If he's really under-charging it'll be hard to keep up what he's doing.

Nobody likes competition in their market and I think he'll be pretty much competition whether he charges $50 or $250. If you're talking about cheapening the art of magic, then I guess it does so to some extent, and I feel this is inevitable given the rising popularity of magic. This hasn't to do with price, but when people notice more magicians around, the impression they will get will be that it is easier to learn magic than if there were fewer magicians. I won't really know how to deal with him as I can't see anything wrong with what he's doing in terms of business ethics. Even a price war, while nobody in the industry will like it, isn't exactly ethically wrong.

hmm....i see where mastero is coming from.....


yes, charging $50 is defintely spoiling the market....i will also be damn pissed off if this is my ricebowl. but all these are market forces...demand & supply......it's not happening in magic, it's happening everywhere....in the airline industry and ship liner industry.....it's good to talk to him, but whether he will listen is another story. he claim himself to be a budget magician, so wat does that proved? he knows the market rates and he's spoiling the market!! one does not call himself or herself providing budget services without knowing the market rates.......


alan, i really feel sorry for you, hope you can convince this budget magician.

yea, i realised. i cant even access the site. anyway, i guess its good if i cant access it. :P

btw, ive bookmarked the page and i will, to the best of my abilities, ensure that the site exceeds its bandwidth everytime.

i too am not too happy with ppl charging low prices, no one in the industry will be.

in any industry, companies will band together in some kind of association and promise not to undercut one another. when this happens, every1 earns less (think abt it).

moreover, lets say u are having a party, and ur kid want a magician. would u hire a $300 one or a $50 one? surely the difference in price seems MORE than any difference in quality. u will be swayed to go for the cheaper one. most people would rather a cheaper one.

although i understand that currently, there is more supply of magicians than before, and the demand hasnt much increased, however, i still think that the number of quality magicians worthy to perform hasnt increased much either. and instead of having sub-standard magicians performing and undercutting the market, they should just remain as an amateur until they are ready.

unlike other industries (eg. airline), magic must be kept as a luxury, and maintain its mystery surrounding it. Magic is a small industry, and such stuff cannot be tolerated.

Gordie, I think you are refering to the oligopoly market, where a few major companies work together to keep the price and other aspects constant.

However this market system does not apply to "any industry". People DO undercut each other, sometimes very severely. That's why we had $1 chicken rice a couple of yrs back.

If someone wants to charge $50 per show, it shows that they percieve themselves as $50 per show. There is actually no such thing as a market rate. I believe a magician who is not worth the "market rate of $300" is doing more damage to the art that someone who is good but performs for free.

If you are a pro, simply state the price you think or rather you know you are worth and stick to it. Why bother about someone undercutting you? You are selling yourself, your skills. It is not a pencil where it is produced in the factory. Each product is unique, each magician is unique.

I highly doubt the audience will choose the $50 guy simply because he is cheap. If you are in charge of a huge event and you want to treat your audiences with a magic show. You then hire a cheap $50 guy who puts up a $50 performance. What will your audience think of you as a host? How much more money in terms of opportunity costs (if it is a business function) would you have lost?

Think about it...before feeling insecure... ^_^

IMHO.....i think it's not right to target his website...

well, in war, all is fair. :)

btw, i dun actually feel that sore abt the undercutting thing.

to me, they are just catering to the lower end market.

I really would not recommend you overload his bandwidth. That's pretty hypocritical, talking about ethics yet taking cheap shots at him.

I think Jason and Maestro have already said the gist of what needs to be said. It's all about quality perception. You can take a $30 flight to Thailand or a $300 flight, but you give up certain quality elements in taking the cheaper flight.

What the $300 airline does NOT do is bomb the budget airline's terminal. It instead plays up the benefits it provides with the increase in price.

This is not a war, so no need to get nasty. If you really feel strongly about it, maybe you can give him a call and talk about it.

"Our SMC Package. $50...
You get...
A handful of magicians playing music.
A handful of musicians doing magic.
A handful of balloon animals.

Package 2, $250
You get...
People who know what they are doing.
Non-dead-animals.
Entertainment*.

*not provided in package 1."

Hi,

I agreed with what Jason and Maestro said. I am into cheerleading in my Poly life, and if some of you guys know, Magnum Force is the national champ for leading years. We are being invited or asked to perform for companies, or other events organizers. Depending on the event types, we charge differently. Our rates are very much the same as professional dancers or stage performancers in the market.

In the past, we did what the budget magician have done and charge low, due to the fact that we are students also. But the performing industry was quite pissed off with us and then we adjusted the rates. But companies still hire us for performance even though there are more squads outside charging lower. Due to the fact that we are recongized and we give good performances for them.

So all this story is not to tell u about my history. But to justify what jason and maestro have said. If u are good, u are good, people will recongize you and recommand you to others. If the person is charging low as in budget, he will lose the market eventually as most people see low price as "ch**p", that is being harsh. Those event holders won't just look for people like that, they look for people that can do good performance, and it fits into their budget. not your budget. So being in budget dun mean that you get rice bowl through out. Eventually you will be only be doing those indoor house hold performances. Then doing big events performances that can set you recongized throughout.

Just what i wanted to say.

David kim

I think its best if we could get this monkey to join SMC. Then, maybe the moderators can make a rule or something that the lowest price for performance is $200? Or, we can encourage him to join, and at the next outing or private meeting we can ambush him. I'll bring the parangs. :blink:

Blackwing...why so violence? fire-breath in his face will settle all the problems already...seen a "cooked" chinese???I can help with that! :lol:

But seriously, if i know what he perform is really only worth $50 then I don't think I'll do anything, but if the show he perform is the $300 house party/standard type, I'll seriously do something! :angry:

-Alan-

I feel that it's up to the magician to charge whatever he wants. There's nothing a competitor can do about it, except to market more aggressively and build up his reputation. This magician is not performing for us, or for any other magicians. He's doing it for money, and it appears that he is rather successful looking at his schedule.

There are market forces in every business, so you'll have to be smart about it and get your customers.

Plus, I agree with what Raoul said. Don't go bombing his website if you're not happy. Put on a magic show and charge $300 and see if you can get any customers first.

true.

Well seem that a lot of you feel so annoyed. Calm down people. If he charge only $50. He will think himself as a $50 magician. This is called labelling and branding. I think he just starting off. Don't expect him to charged $300 and give only a $50 performance right. Well just lived with it la.

like i said, he's catering to the lower market. its like budget airlines, most ppl (including myself, will go for the budget airline), while rich ppl will go for the more luxurious one.

since we cant really do anything abt it, we'll just take it that its just diff targets.

ok, hi, first of all.. i agree with those agree/no prob with him charging cheaper.. i mean,to be honest, i not gonna hide it coz many people dun like him or wat, i've get to known him n he's teaching me. he's not charging cheap or wat coz he's no money of desperate of stuffs u guys said of him in this n in e other post and he also told me of his perspective of charging at that price.

ok, the following iz wat he told me, and i agree with it, i rephrase it in my own word


~It seems like we are selling magic n ppl have to pay a high price juz to watch a show,common sense tells me it's for rich ppl onli.like spending 250-300 for 30 min?wat abt those ppl not tt rich yet, they wanted to make their children have a unforgettable bday?buying a large cake?larger n larger?y not make a sponge ball appear in her hand?cool uh?so charging cheaper iz also kinda benefit for ppl.u know sgreans are not all tt super duper rich.

In another way, for those who wanted to learnmagic, but iz a student like me n many others, have u guys ever experience situation where we starve for 1 week juz becoz we bought a gimmick last week? well, i've been through tt mani mani times. u u guys might be thinking "Dun learn if u're not wiling to" but e prob iz no tt.. hmm.. i can't explaine this well, but hope u understand wat i mean. so if a student who do not have much money,yet interested to learn magic have to go to those standard magic courses tt usually charges high price n go broke?of coz, i'm not toking abt those not really keen in learning, i'm refering to those who are realli truthful in learning like mani of us... it's the experience tt count.. if it's realli so ex, then very few ppl will get e experience(hope u guys agree,at least some?).

anyway, i think it's enough, if anyway frm SMC have ques regarding i think it's a great idea to give him a call n meet him up,he'll be great
to ans e question.he's a nice guy. i'm sure Aloy have met him ritez?


hope i'll not be snipped down e moment i pressed "Add To Reply". if it happened, tell my mom i love her.. lol :lol:


peace,
fume

Hi fume,

Please do an intro about yourself before you continue with the topic, also tell that "teacher" of yours to either do it free or don't do at all! I've got some confirmed shows cancelled because my client found cheaper magician! In a way he snatch my client away (might not be him)! If you were me you'll get fed up too!

As for the learning, you don't need to do a house party to gain experience, I gain all my experience on the streets and exchanging ideas with fellows professional, other than that I perform for friends, your reason of $50 to gain experience is not acceptable, you can easily earn more than $50 and gain experience on the streets!

What I can see here is that you're helping him to explain his situation which I can understand, but do ask him to give a thought about others who're doing it for a living!

If he still insist on doing shows for the lower income family then here's my suggestion: tell your "teacher" to ask his client to give red packet instead, not charge cheap!

Please take note, I'm not angry with you or anyone, just that from a professional point of view I feel that he need to be fair to the rest of the professionals! Also I'm speaking on behalf of some other professionals who're taking this matter very seriously!

-Alan-

I agree with Alan.

We cant say because you are poor, u can resort into means to go in your way. If you want, do it in a small circle. But the guy is advertising and being "proud" that he can provide service for those that need. But seriously, i am also into performing, and it hurts when you know that someone else is killing ur rice bowl.

If you want to cater into the circle of those clients, talk to them and understand their situation. If you know that they want to cater to their kids and budget is an issue. You can be wat you say, do it free or a red packet by them. If you know they are rich, direct them to someone else or charge them the normal fee.

It is like, i do repairs for people, computer. I never tell my client how much i charge, cause i do it for experience. And whats the different i am to you, i also providing a service. But in the end, they will give me a red packet as a token of appreciations, i accept.

Understand that they are people that survice using this skills and the guy is killing them. And some more he is a student, you know that magic is an expensive skill to learn. How about those pro that spend so much money on their dress, presentation and adveristment? Since you know it is not cheap, y kill their only way to earn money?

This is wat i think because i experience it before also, charging lower than market and pro telling us to adjust to them. We tell them that we are students and cannot charge high. So we came up with the agreement that we will charge near to their price, and we should not advertise. So it is the reputation that we rely on to attract more customer. If you are good and also low cost, u dun need to advertise to get people. If you are good and you charge a pro price, you got the right to put urself into the market and fight for the rice bowl.

I think it's a little ridiculous to insist that all magicians charge a "minimum" rate. I mean, if they are not worth that much yet, how can you insist that they ask for that price? And if you are worth what you are asking for, no reason to be worried about others asking for a lower rates.

Let's look at the other arts.
Musicians. Bands charge very different rates. Some as little as $150 for a 4-man band to perform 3 sets in 1 night. Some asks for $500 for 1 night. And the good and well known ones can get virtually any figure they ask for. Jay Zhou is not bothered that others are singing his songs and offering much much cheaper price than him.
Artists. Some offer their paintings for $200 each and can barely sell any. Others offer their paintings for hundreds of thousands and people are still grabbing for it. Andy Warhol is not bothered that people are making poster versions his art and selling it at a fraction of his price.

Since those doing it pro are doing it full time, they should have a much better packaging, marketing and publicity and branding done. Also it is expected that they will have a much higher quality product. I doubt a lot of real professional magicians will really feel very threatened by a part-timer who only has time for it in the weekends.

I agree mostly with what you said Rabbit (gosh, who would have thought there would be such a day B)).
But you have to understand that not everyone can become "Jay Chou" or "Andy Warhol" just because they are "good enough". A lot of it has to do with marketing and publicity.
While it's true that the public can tell those that are REALLY GOOD from those that are REALLY BAD, but i suspect a lot more fall in the in-betweens where it's a lot more difficult to tell 1 apart from another in terms of quality of service.
So to those who does it for a living, this is an "aggressively-priced competitor", and those are NEVER popular.
Even thou that is not wrong at all in my opinion. It exists in all industries and is part of the an healthy equations, the 2 opposing forces, Self-Interest and Competition. But enough economics for now B)

Yup, I've met this guy actually, quite a while ago, when I heard that this guy is giving magic lessons for $50. While I am neutral about his shows rates, I was more interested about his magic lessons part. I was interested to know what he was teaching. It was quite basic and unremarkable actually.

sry multi-talent, i do not mean $50 for the experience for me, wat i mean iz the good experience for the spec for $50.. sorry for not phrasing it well enuf n correcting it so long later.. didn't realli cheak it out

For "you"? Or you speaking for your "teacher" again? ^_^
Surely there's not need for that ;) SMC welcomes everyone and anyone who are interested in magic without bias.


Welcome to SMC Jeffery ;) B)

OMG, IMmagine if magic was cheap , the entire world could afford it and would know magic , WHAT WOULD BE OF US!!!
*jumps into a poor of despair*

huh.. aloy wat u mean for me?for teacher? erm. i post the second one iz becoz multi had misread one of my sentance .. nvm if tt cause more confusion. juz ignore that

sry gonna post again, juz to make things clear.. no one had told me wat to post here or things like tt, wat i post is for myself n i tell muself wat to post ;) and for tt second post, i actually wanna clearify tt wat i mean for experiance is for the spectator to get while paying for a small amount. NOT like wat multi had said, for my OWN performance experiance. tt's wat i was abt to say tt caused confusion, sorry for that


fume