Hey... Yes... just wanna ask if.. the exposure of a certain flourish is considered 'exposure' here in SMC. :D

I think it holds the same for flourishes. I mean if u teach something which you did not invent, I think that would be kinda wrong.

Especially if there is already a marketing DVD or the likes on that particular flourish.

Hmm...Ok... I'm waiting for the mods to answer the question.. Maybe its considered exposure... But ain't flourishes shown to others? They will still get it if the watch it over and over again. :mellow:

its considered exposure if you teach the person with in-deapth detail <_<

You mean something like.... 'Finger here and finger there' Is it? Ok... How about you roughly knowing a flourish and asking someone to explain it it greater detail for you? Is it also 'exposure'? :huh:

if you have a rough knowledge of flourishing, then you would(/should) already have a book, video or dvd on flourishing(DURH!)....

No...I'm not talking about flourishing as a whole. But only a certain move. Like. As in seeing other people do.

If u bought na DVD and u cant do a certain move, watch the dvd again.. thats what the rewind button is for.

No..But now I'm asking. If you still can't get it after playing around with the rewind button, Is it ok to ask people around if you have prove that you have the DVD? :blink:

It is the same as magic tricks. You can discuss tricks with peole that own the product too. But just make sure first.

haha thats what we were trying to tell you, sorry for not being able to explane properly.

Sorry to bring up this old thread.

I was wondering if it is considered exposure if you teach a classic move like the Charlier cut or one-handed faro, which no one knows who created.

EVERYONE knows who created the Charlier Cut... As the name implies, its MR. Cut. Thats right. And EVERYONE knows who created the Faro shuffle. MR. Perfectshuffleeighttimesisfalse. :lol:

Anwyays, it doesn't REALLY count as exposure, but people usually don't post tutorials for these moves because it takes the mystery behind it away.

There's no such thing as exposure when you're not hiding anything in the first place yo.

Dragon

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking of making a few tutorials of basic flourishes, meant for people thinking of starting flourishing. Just simple stuff like Charliers and one hand shuffles so they can decide whether or not they really want to learn flourishing before buying 70 dollar DVDs or Encyclopedias.

Question: Would the flourishing community (a.k.a. you) be against it?

Simple stuff like one handed shuffles? DUDE!

Anyways, regarding your idea, that is a very good idea. However, who is to say what is 'simple' and what is ok to teach? We probably need some guidelines first!

Er.. Did I say something wrong?

Anyway, in my opinion, I think that as long as the flourish is considered something standard for magicians and taught in many different books/DVDs it should be ok to teach. In general, anything found in those "old" books like Royal Road to Card Magic with a small section on flourishing.

EDIT: But I would like the opinions of other flourishers as well, therefore the reason for posting this. Don't want to piss people off, and I'm not very sure whats acceptable since I'm quite new to this.

honestly, the questions i would have are,

who would get to see those videos, before buying them? would the videos be broadcasted on youtube.com or something similar?

damn those people who uploaded tutorials there.

what are basics to you?


XB teaches charliers. the various kinds of charliers.

they have almost like 20minutes of charliers in there.

if you're going to create a tutorial of charliers, who's going to buy XB anymore?

but of course, there's more material inside the dvd.


your intention is good, but if people intend to start flourishing, i'll point them towards XB instead of creating tutorials for them.


as dragon said, there's no exposure when you're not hiding anything in the first place.

flourishes are visual, and if you like it, you like it. if you don't, you don't. you don't have to have hands on time to learn and then decide if flourishing is good for you or not. if you're going to go through charliers and then decide flourishing isn't for you, you shouldn't start in the first place.


flourishing consists of both showmanship and practice.


imagine you see a ballet concert and it inspires you so much you want to try dancing ballet. the teacher teaches you how to do a curtsey, you think its girly and you quit.


it just does not do the artform justice.

if you're going to create videos, create actual performances to inspire them rather than teach them. if that's the path they want to go, point them in the direction to go.


that would be more beneficial imo.



of course, the above are just my own opinions.

regards.



edit: i just read through my post, realised i used alot of you. lol. its not shooting at you. as in take it in the perspective of the audience you're creating the tutorials for.

Hey Ming, just to clear things up, the one-handed shuffle is not an easy move.

Its a faro done with one hand.

Regarding the tutorial issue, its your call.

To me, flourish is just another form of juggling? There's not much of secret to juggling. Its a skill that people see.

Of course if someone were to create a certain juggling pattern and not wanting it to be released or taught to people, we're got to respect them.

In general, I think exposure to flourish won't hurt much. I believe there's such things as flourish Hecklers eh... :lol:

Mm...The one handed shuffle was the third flourish I learnt, so I thought most people would find it easy. Anyways..

Yes, I would refer someone interested in flourishing to XB. The stuff taught in there is very well taught. But among those who just watched a flourish vid, decided, Hey! I want to learn this!, many would look at the price of XB and go, er.. maybe not. I'm not talking about magicians, I'm referring to laypeople who happen to chance upon sites like decknique with no prior knowledge of magic.

However, if these people were to learn a bit more about flourishing, then the 70 bucks isn't really that much. Its not so much the move that they are learning, but the fact that flourishing is something that requires dedication and practise. Furthermore, out of the people that do buy XB, some would watch the first section, try to do a Charlier, realise that it takes effort, give up, and waste 70 bucks.

As you say its like watching a ballet performance (flourish vid), and deciding to learn it. Out of those people that watch the performance some will take up lessons (buying XB) and learn curtseys (charliers) and give up. People that get inspired by the performance may decide its not worth their effort and not take up lessons. If those people were to learn curtseys, they might become more interested in whatever they're learning, and there would be more people interested in ballet.

Yes I would be posting it on the web. There aren't any tutorials of simple stuff like Charliers on the web to my knowledge (well, there is one on youtube, but its quite bad. The link is here. Notice how the video ends before he starts doing Charliers with both hands.) I think that posting tutorials on youtube or something similar would be the same as posting it on any other website.

XB teaches much more than just Charliers. If Charliers are all that are taught, then I really wouldn't recommend it. I knew how to do a Charlier before buying XB (well, I knew how to do a one handed shuffle too), but I still found it to be a good buy, simply because it teaches so much (I don't have others, but looking at the other DVDs list of moves, XB teaches a lot).

And, honestly, if nobody buys XB because they know how to do Charliers, I really wouldn't care. De'vo did not invent the Charlier cut. Why does he deserve to profit from teaching it when I'm willing to do it for free?

It is your call to create the tutorial. If laymen chance upon sites like deckniques, then so be it. Why would they want to learn a flourish because they like it?

As stated earlier, it does not do the art form justice. If he buys an XB dvd, figures that flourishing is not his type, then he loses that $70 bucks. It is a price to pay for lacking the determination to go on.

If he wants to learn flourishing, he would buy an XB dvd and make good use of it. As stated before, if a performance does not inspire you enough to want to learn it, learning it won't make you want to do it more.

We all have the freedom of choice to learn what we want to learn.

Imagine you want to learn how to play the piano, you have to start with the basics. Reading notations and music theory. If wanting to play the piano does not make you want to get your foundation strong, even if I teach you the foundations for free, you will not put in the effort to learn it.

If the price of learning something you really want to learn puts you off, save up. As simple as that. I bought EoPCF from Emmanuel like few months back. I reserved the book for a few weeks before buying it. Reason being, i did not have enough money. I saved up for what i wanted. I made it, and so can anyone else out there.

When i started out, people out there were telling me I did not put in effort, and that I had too many excuses. And now I give my opinions in relation to my foolishness before.

I have nothing against you creating tutorials. I am against people who learn flourishing for the sake of knowing how to do it.

When we do something, we must do it with the right principles and etiquettes. By making tutorials easily available to the laymen, are we inculcating the proper discipline of our artform? And that is my biggest concern.

I started flourishing with the mindset of showing off. But now, if I were to go back in time to start all over, I would want to learn how to perform instead.

p.s That charlier tutorial above is wrong, although it looks correct. Try doing the charliers faster, and you will notice that the mechanics are different.

Regards.

haiku:

------------------------------------
Teaching stuff for free:
marketplace of ideas, good.
But mystery gone.
------------------------------------

-Stick

Brilliant, Kev.

Don't quite understand what the mystery behind the flourish is. Some people say there's no exposure of flourishing since nothing is hidden. Is the mystery something totally different, or just something I'm missing?

Hmm.. Thats why I started learning. Guess people have different reasons.

And I do realise that the grip for the charlier tutorial is wrong. Which is why I say its bad. Because of his grip, the cards keep slipping.

About people learning for the sake of learning, I would rather them learn it correctly, and do it properly, than learn it like the person above taught it.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Can i have an autograph on your copy of Couch? -_-

Mystery behind flourishing? Sure there is. Perhaps you don't see it because you're a flourisher, but laymen do experience the impossibility of having a fan balanced on another fan...

Jaspas I can't do the HD either. Lol.


Kev, sign my copy of couch too. thanks =)

Anyway Ming, the first thing that caught my eye wasn't the grip. But the mechanics for the charlier, that is, the motion. I forgot where it was covered, but I think its in the EoPCF.

If you can't figure out, I'll show you when we meet.

I believe the mystery refers to the mood or if you want to be put it simply, the Underground element. (Do I sound like De'vo? Damn) But definitely not exposure, and not even near.

Dragon

Ah.. I see. I'll try to think of something. If I can't then I guess I just won't film it. Thanks.

Jemarcus, the vid is just damn bad. The guy that posted even has other videos revealing magic tricks. Thats definitely exposure.

Honestly, that guy sucks beyond words. I bet he's writing the good comments to himself.

Nuh.. Maybe there's 100000000000000 comments that's against it, but he deleted them all except for those ignorant kid's good comment. I used to do that as well. :ph43r:

Anyway, has anyone written in to youtube.com to complain?

I have just written an email over. Hopefully they'll respond to it. Lol.

If you're against the exposure, write to them too.

The videos will be there as long as nobody stands out.

Make the difference.

Youtube don't really care i think. They're not magicians after all :ph43r:

Try messaging the user and ask him to take the video off, probably they'll just swear at you and tell you how much they hate magic or how generous they are. lol..

However, If they posted things that are copyrighted, for example, Penguin Magic's explaination video, you can report to PM directly and hopefully they will do something about it(although i dun think PM really care THAT much too, base on experience through previous few incidents).

I don't think youtube can do anything about it. They don't own the video, and they can't force the user to remove it. I sent the user a message. Lets just hope he removes the vids.

One other alternative is we upload blank videos onto youtube.com using the same name of the video.

This will create a long list of videos if someone searches for that particular video.


Or we can just sit around and wait for a miracle. Lol. I.E aliens taking him away and washing our memories away.

You tube is just another bunch of unethical people . They tell you not to pload copyrighted material, but condone the act of doing that.