Being able to figure out sleights and methods from videos does not prove you are a magician. In fact some might think you are a heckler...

I've got some friends who have some basic magic knowledge... like DL and F****... basic stuff.... They think that they are magicians cuz they know how these tricks work....sigh.... AND THE MAIN POINT IS THEY CANNOT PERFORM THE TRICKS WELL! You can spot their DL 10 meters away..... ok bad example... -_-

However one of them is quite talented and his sleight is fairly decent... He actually figured out some of my tricks and perform it himself.... He did some card transpo and get good reactions :ph43r:

I thought he went for some magic lessons but found out that he only know some very basic stuff and figure out tricks by watching videos and my performance.....

He asked if he is now a magician and i don't really know how to answer him.... (i don't call myself a magician..... but others do... -_- )

My question is HOW DO YOU DEFINE THE WORD MAGICIAN? :huh:

And is it wrong for someone to figure out and perfect a trick without purchasing it?

there's only 2 possibilities that a person can figure out your trick,

1. You lack practice and thus flashed the 'move' and he saw it.

2. That person is good...

its a person's own ability to be able to figure out a trick, i don't see what's wrong with it.

is it a crime if u figured out why the sky is blue?

just give enough practice and that will eventually reduced the chance of being seen through. That's the only way.... ^_^

What i mean is that he know how to do a DL... I don't know where the hell he learn that from... then he see how i used this sleight in my own routine....and then he copied my routine!! :ph43r:

I don't think I can practice until a person who knows how to do a DL can't tell that i'm doing a DL :blink:

The main problem with some magicians is that they feel that being able to guess the method is the right or most normal thing to do. And being able to do that means that they are "Good". As mentioned by Ace, I think that makes them a professional and potential Heckler more than a magician.

IMO, theres a diference between viewing to "Figure" out an effect and viewing for "Entertainment" purposes. Maybe thats the reason why most magicians make poor audiences

Some people do not understand why magicians get upset when their effects got "stolen" by people who managed to figure it out and begins to claim that they are "good" cos they know how its done just by watching it.

Think of it this way, If he did not perform it, Would you have actually though of that particular effect and the presentation that comes with it?

The sky being blue is a fact in the public domain. Just like gravity keeps us from floating and our eyes enable us to see, etc. Does it really take much to figure such stuff out? :wacko:

Your wrong being unable to perfect a DL until someone who knows how to do a DL cant spot it.
I've seen DL's that cant be noticed until the person tells me so.

Hmm, from my view, the person might have figured it out on his own way. Because a certain effect, there are alot of ways to achieve it, as all of us have seen. So it is not necessary that he need a classic color change to achieve a color change, thats what i mean.

You dun call yourself magician, first of all, you need to respect the magician in order to become the magician. Magician is a person that able to make wonders for people, not in a way to show that he is more superior than them, but a way to express their feelings and thoughts through those effects, and telling a story to the audience, a story that there is no impossible in this world, it is whether you wan to do it or not.

So once you achieved that, people will call you and remember you as a magician, that creates wonder to them, making them believe that nothing is impossible. and then you will be a magician.

Maybe it too chim..

But thats what i think a magician is defined.

I'll define magician as "someone who gives the feeling of magical feelings". Put it this way, no matter how many secrets you know or how well you perfect the techniques, if you do not know how to present or give the magical feelings to others, you'll just be a person who do tricks.

e.g. you don't require to be able to juggle 9 balls for 30 mins without dropping to be called a juggler, but if someone who can juggle 3 balls for 15 mins but entertaining, will be know as a professional juggler.

Its all in the feelings that you gives others, if you're magical your friends will call you a magician, just like if you always crap around don't your friends call you a clown even if you're not one? ^_^

-Alan-

wow.

I like this ...

I choose to differ.

anyone who do "magic" is a magician, even if he only "figure it out" from videos and others performance. In the end, thats public percpetion, and i will go with it.

Haha, personally I figure out tricks from others sometimes to add to my routine.
But I do add my style of performance and some other modifications to suit me.

IMO, copying isn't such a bad thing after all.

But then there is always a saying, "If you want to copy, copy it well". Personally, I don't really mind others copying my stuff and do. The only thing that will piss me off is that they copy, but don't do it well.

Of course there will be some idiots who will figure out your moves and claim themsleves intelligient. Why not take this moment to let it become an inspiration for you to do better? I always strive to aim for perfection in my performace. Remember, moves does not equate to magic. Magic means so much more. "Moves" is JUST PART of magic.

As for Ace's question, "And is it wrong for someone to figure out and perfect a trick without purchasing it?" I would say "no". But if you do have that skill to figure out and perfect a trick, maybe its time for you to create your own things. You can't just copy forever...

Isn't it contradicting?

ahhh the new generation of magicians.

It suddenly dawn on me why Maven wrote and released "Protocol of the Elders" :ph43r:

Gold brick.

you have no right to perform an effect unless you :

- create the sleights/effect

- buy the original book/dvd where the sleight/effect is taught

- asked permission from the creater

got it?

Magicdow, I guess I phrased that section you quoted wrongly. It is more like getting frustrated and angry when someone figures out moves. In this world is a dog eat dog world. You cannot mantain your uniqueness by using a single move or trick. Someone is bound to see it and figure it out and copy it. Uniqueness must be maintained constantly. Coming out with a constant stream of unique content and performance mechanicis the only way to mantain uniqueness today. I'm sure the phrase "Evolve or die" rings a bell.

Ahh.. someone mentioned the protocols. That is one book that inspired me to improve my magic and to relook at my performance skills. Tough its hiding in my drawer now, but that is one of the most inspiring books out there. I guess my idea of "copying" is quite misunderstood by people....

Don't just copy, improve on it and from there make something new.

If magicians keep holding on to the fact that "This is mine! I cannot let anyone else have it...", then Max Maven's perspective will come true. If The Professor never went out there to seek out the secrets of other gamblers, and using them to incoporate them into magic, I don't think close-up magic will improve to such a great extent. After all, many of the effects we see today are improved ones from their predecessors, isn't it?

Magic has already changed through history. We cannot see it the way it is before.

Regards,
llamalamer

Haha. I agree.

But,

When one's improvements is added to it, it becomes original again. But credits will still have to be mentioned. I do put in my money to get ideas that facinates me.

Please do not misunderstand.

Thanks for the insight :)

But did the professor go out and discuss the sleights with the gamblers (Hence they know he is learning together with them) and later improve on them, or did he actually go out, scrutinise and copy while in the process improving it? I think theres a major difference.

One is with permission, the other is well, 'copying'

I think magic hasnt really changed. Its mainly the magicians

Cool reply you've got there!

I think "copy" can be a very broad term. It just depends on how one defines it. For me, to replicate an effect totally, without any modifications added, is copying.

Copy + modifications = creation?

Seems like I'm going to change it into

Copy + modifications + permission = creation

There are different kind of magicians out there. There will always be a few "black sheep" who do what I used to do and magic as an art will be brought down because of them. Sure that is, but are we going to just sit around and ignore it and pursue our own goals in magic?

Let's make some magic, man!

Every single one of us used to be a black sheep. Some of us still are.

How can you become a pro without going through being a beginner? Its all part of the magic life dude.

those who're copying without permissions are just ammatuers.

Guide them to the right attitude or just ignore them, ad they'll be amatuer forever. the choice is yours.

Hmm.. Seems that there are quite a few similarities between “magicians” and “musicians”:

1. Both relates to a form of art or entertainment.
2. Some went through formal training, and the rest managed to figure out themselves (by hearing/sight/through scripts etc). Those self-taught may not be worse off than those who went through proper lessons (in terms of its entertainment value)
3. Both require a lot of passion and practice to be good in their trade.
4. Same piece of work can be delivered in a different way, with a different touch.
5. Some write their own scripts/song/routine/patter. Others just reproduce other people’s hard work. Some give credits, many don’t.
6. Some prefer listen/look at the CDs/DVDs, and copy the routine, and some prefer to read from scripts, adding a little imagination/personal sytle to the performance. A handful actually thought that they have listened to all the CDs in the world, and therefore considered a musician, although they can't even play twinkle twinkle little star with any musical instrument... :P
7. .. many more..



Was there ever a grading system that grades the skill level of magicians? Thought I’ve seen different titles for different magicians.. :)

Hmmm.... I think he may not have spot it when i'm doing the DL....its when the effect is accomplished then he knew i must have DLed..... :(
And the person who performed for you is a master of misdirection i must say..... to be able to pull a DL infront of a magician without being caught! :ph43r:
That really inspires me to do better DLs.......* training DL after DL*

I like this one! Ya i think its all about the audience... If the audience think that you are a magician then you are one....

That really answered my question.... However i don't think there is anything we can do to prevent people from copying tricks without permission.....is it against the law? :ph43r:

No, but its basic courtesy, I guess. However, if 50% of the magicians in the world wanted to perform Daniel Garcia's Torn, would every single one of them have to mail him and ask for permission? I'd think he'd get pretty annoyed answering all that mail :P

With regard to the DL, when one of the newbie magicians in my school came up to me and asked me to show him a pass, I was feeling nervous because I haven't quite mastered it yet. So I substituted a DL. I went through the shaking motion as thought in the Invisipass on ninja 1. And it worked! He thought I did a pass. Yeah, just my two cent's worth. if you don't behave like you're doing a DL, even people who know the move won't suspect. It's all about natural card handling. Just my 2-cents worth. :D

Haha that is so clever and bold! This is something like the one-handed pass in Ninja 1.