Why not u all guy pool your resources and open a kind of library or magician vault to purchase your stuff. Member can borrow the dvd or book they require at stipulated time. The member should contribute let say $25 per month and a certain deposit to take these item. Any member do not contribute within 6 month will be defunked!! :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

hmm, dont think it's a good idea...
no.1 share resources? hmm not very wise especially when anyone can just join the forum..
no.2 $25 a month may be a large sum for some of us here.
hmmm...

I mean u need to select people to be your member right ! Even a normal people will get delirium on the passes and basic manipulation! I am talking about on enhancing yourself and others which has the ability but not capacity (I mean dough). But still if u prefer it as a close market as it is now! Suddenly u will reach 50's and yet so many things you left out! These is the same happen on old magicians in Singapore who still do the props tricks and stage tricks rather than people's magic tricks that is Close-up & Street Magic which is more base on manipulation and Sleights! And U guys is the one that can enhance the Art of MAgic! So Much Resources need to feed to your guys!

you know, i do agree with zinally about the magic library thing. we could pool our resources together and get a whole load of stuff. but trick is to make sure everyone is honest enough, and that no one defaults on stuff. this should be discussed at the next outing, whenever that is..

A local magic library on magic will be good! But must be totally honest and transparent about it and the money should be spent on a variety of things and not just one kind of magic like cards. The local IBM ring has a mini library for the members.

Back to Osterlind, I own his mind mysteries DVDs. I must say his effects are very unique and very well thought out. I don't really like his style of presentation though, but the effects are very good. I am willing to share with anyone if he or she is willing to share any good books or dvds I am interested in! PM me or email me!

Is there any copyright/legal implications to be considered if we really want to go the direction of a library?

I dun think we can just buy the material and put them in a library can we?

Woah...... I own this set of videos too! One of my few videos! I really like Richard Osterlind's performance and he really kept me hooked. Jim Sisti workes really well with Richard Osterlind in explaining the tricks and he points out one or two things Ricard Osterlind might have forgotten.

The highlight of these 4 volumes really is Volume 2 - The Osterlind Breakthrough Card System. This is a really good card stack.

Will post a detailed review these 2 days since its been a while since I watched it.

In response to Zinally's post, I really think its a great idea! Just let me point out a few of the pros and cons.

Well, where would you keep this "magician vault"? There is no place you can really store the stuff unless you want to keep all our dvds in a black trashbag in some unknown alley :D

Also, I presume that the $25 would be used to purchase more stuff? Well, why not set a rule or critera that you would have to put in one or two more items every month or two to make sure the library keeps growing!

Also, if the $25 is used to purchase stuff, they could and probably will be disputes to what the money is used to buy. And like Morphine said - "The Legal Implications" Not sure the companies take kindly to this <_<

Well, instead of having a fixed vault or library, why not set up a database instead?
We could have a few people join in one part of the forum with a list of the videos and books they had. Then other people in that database could lend or borrow these videos! How would you exchange these videos? The outings of course!

The idea of having a library is really interesting......Hopefully other members will give their views of how it should work and what they think of having such a system.

Hmm about library system.. I don't really agree.. cos too many can access to the things we have.. Any people can just join the froum and fork out the 25 bucks just to get to know the serects. However, since we have outing we can share wat we have with each other. We can share effects and new things we get. This is wat our monthly outing is for. We shared and learn from our outing and get to know each other better along the way.. I feel that those who who sincerely love this art will make a effort to attend most of the outing and stuff.. This is just most point of view -_- Back to the topic. I love Osterlind Break thru card system.. very smart of him and hmm.. how should i put it is wonderful lol.. his way of presenting his mental effect is really good.. So if any one wan to buy his DVD i will recomend it lol.. ^_^

Well, a magic library will indeed put a lot of magic dealers out of business.
Which is NOT what i want to do.

And, let's say, a monthly fees of $25. While it may seems a lot at 1st. But it's actually a very small price for a lot of secrets. Someone could join for 1 month and have a magic buffet and opt out the next. Unless we ask for a minimum subscription of 1 year, which then become a bit too much.

Interesting ideas and discussion....tell me more people..... B)

I'm strongly against such acts like renting. You are actually stealing and making a profit out of it. If it is not for a profit, then its not too bad, but this will attract too many people.

But this is not renting right? No one is making a profit from this (Hope so anyway :huh: )

Anyway, if such a library eventually comes into place, we could set up a critera like how long you have been in the forum (at least 2 months), or the number of post you have. This would sift out those who just join the forum just to access the library.

And I do not think a magic library WILL NOT put magic dealers out of business. We will still buy books and dvds - its just that other people will have access to what you buy and vice versa.

If you were to produce a dvd one day, would you allow these things to happen? I.E 10 persons buy the dvd, but 100 gets to watch it. I use to have the same thinking like you guys, may be, you'll agree with what I say one day or when you're into magic for some time. Meanwhile you can ignore what I say, I'll just keep those stuff I know to myself instead of sharing.

Magicdow, how does IBM's or SAM's (if they have one) magic library work?

Magicdow, you got a point. But then again, how does a library operate then? It lends out books to people for a fixed price every year. Is this considered unfair to the author then?

Or what about when your friend a CD, is this considered unfair? I am sure that the original publisher did not want to CD to be shared around.

Perhaps you would like to comment on this?

Unfortunately, magic has a much much smaller market than other artform like pop music or movies. And because of the nature of the craft, it is likely to stay so.

While borrowing/copying music may maybe mean that a pop star may not be able to get his 27th ferrari, the magic industry is much more sensitive to such actions. Does that make it any less wrong? Probably not. But we are all protective of the things we love and we choose our battles yah? B)
Having said that, I am as guilty as the next person of trading videos/tips and secrets with friends. Generally I'm not super uptight abt it, but it's one thing to share with friends on a social basis, it's another thing to turn it into organised piracy.
Local magic shops. Love them or hate them. Again we are not here to put them out. But with a little more available information about various facts, we can help the magic newbie from being ripped off. And generally improving the magic scene here. They do however need to make a living and their presence IS important to the magic scene, like it or not. Now i'm just digressing.....

Back to the magic library. I do know for a fact that many magic clubs around the world operates a magic library of some sort. Just wonder how does that work for them......
And btw, if you go to your neigbourhood national library, chances are you will be able to find a few magic books there. Some pretty decent ones too....


Cheers

Great point Morphine!

Oh and just for the note, the library has some great books. The last time I checked Orchard library, they had Magic for Idiots! and Marks Wilson Complete Course of Magic. Kinokuniya also has some of the penguin range of books like Royal Road To Card Magic and Practical Mental Magic by Theodore Annemann - Great Books for everyone.

I will try to contact these two clubs via their email? Having a heck of a time finding their emails tho :mellow:

Morphine has answered your questions. You haven't answered mine. Would you share your work with someone you don't know and have not paid a single cent to you?

I confess I do share some works with a few people I trust, not to any Tom, Dick or Harry.

Morphine, IBM has a library but not many people use it as it is a bit cumbersome. It is located at a member's office temoprary. The books are donated by members and they are very old books. Some even signed by Dai Vernon.

Magicdow, sorry didn't see that you were asking me a question.

To answer your question, the answer probably is "no". However, if one day, this guy emails me asking me whether it would be ok to add it to a library where a lot of people, I am sure it would be a different answer.

Maybe asking the publisher of the DvDs for permission first is a proper thing to do first? I am sure if the letter is sincere I wouldn't mind.

Neo

If you look at the prints behind most DVDs, you'll see
"All rights reserved. The material contained within is protected under the copyright laws. Duplication, distribution, or any other commercial use, in whole or in part is strictly prohibited."

If you're good or lucky to sell a lot of your work to cover your R&D, time effort, you'll probably say ok. But if you only managed to sell a small qty, would you still agree to share it with others who are not paying? And how would you answer to those who have paid for it? Is it fair to them?

Yes, but could you plese look at the line before that

"Maybe asking the publisher of the DvDs for permission first is a proper thing to do first?"

I acknowledge that it was my typo and it should have been "I might consider" instead of " I am sure it would be a different answer"

It really depends of the publisher as I am not mind reader, I wouldn't tell you what other publishers think.

I think I'm wasting time here. Good luck to you if you ever release products. I will not be contributing to this thread anymore.

I some how agree with Magicdow... We trade among magic lovers is ok but if setting up a library man I can't imagine wat will happen.. If everyone pay 25 bucks and get to the matreial we had pay so much for and practice so hard for is some how unfair... I prefer we stick to outing type and share among ourselve just the small group of us.. that is my point of view.. :huh:

I'm telling you that this system will screw us all up. Gone will be the days where we saved for anything and the days that await us wil be those of waiting for this 'library' to update. This is outright piracy and I don't think its fair to ANYONE. There's a reason why there are disclaimers at the beginning of each video and copyright logos in each book/manuscript. Trading, however is completely different from this piracy system you all are thinking about (or "library" some call it.). Trading is about the exchange between information and stuff. People shouldn't pirated items just like how using counterfeit money is wrong...

All in all, this has been an interesting expositary. heck, i may even expend on this and use it for the article competition...

Guys, don't get me wrong my aim to open up the library is to give u the chance to get as much resources as u can to develop the best abilities mean to be best magician at the least time possible. Any person just get kick to know the secret is a jackass and would not last long. I know a lot of new breed of magician who got potential but lack of information on the subject. So it is up to you all to know the advantage on the best information ever can accumulate in a best possile time. Wadda... too many bestlah :D

I believe that too much material in too little time will NEVER work. You won't be able to test it, modify it, personalize it, retest it, ponder on it, expand it, and make the best out of it. Instead you'll be like," Oh yes! There IS this method. I'll try it out once.", do it once, and move on to another item. Tell me, how is that a good thing? New magis should spend more time learning things one by one, and not depend on someone you release a bucket full of manuscripts on their tables. They should work for what they do, and only then can thier presentation skills and personality shine through their magic. I know, because there was a time i went into a magic shop and bought four manuscripts. True, I learnt a lot of methods, but it did absolutely nothing for my performance skillz.

I believe that ones like Kevin and Huron would agree with me after all, they are people who confine within a single effect/flourish. Tell me, hand a new magician the "Encyclopedia of Flourishes" and what do you think it would do for him? It probably waste 2 hours in his life as he attempts to do a over head spring before he even he attempts to try a normal spring. Magic is an art where you have to learn and discover one step at a time, too much information, in this case, is bad...

Now THAT should be in the article competition. B)

Thank you morphine.
LoL. But still, i think its not a mature enough article for the competition. I'm still draft-ing

Magic can't be taught, it can only be learnt. The hard way.

-Kev

Said like a true master... Kevin, so are you against or with the idea?

i think the crux of the issue is whether or not a magic library is legal and ethical. and in my opinion, no. just as piracy hurts the music industry, in the long term, such actions will hurt the magic industry as well.

Wow! Really a lively discussion. Anyway this is just my opinion as I said before MAgic ia an art of performing if u r not prepare to practice hard & perform, u better not learning it especially just to know the secrets. Frankly I am not a magician just happen to be a guy who loves magic and being in magic for the past 10 years. I learn all the tricks, passes, illussion, escapes & others not thru any course or DVD but thru public libraries and articles from magic club which they sent to the libraries in other words from any Public Domain. Now my resources is from Forum, personnal magician friend from US,web link,demos etc. I do not believe in spending hundreds of dollars just to know tricks as magic is limitless and depend on your creativity in performing. I also don't believe to spend $25 to know a single tricks unless it is something like NFW or others but surely not to pay for snap chages, chavier's false cut, tengkai etc. In US a 12 years boy know all the stuff due to the open resources that they can get. As I say the libraries is strictly for an enthuasist who loves magic and to be realistic u only can love magic but surely it hard to be a PRO.I never charge on my performance as I always perform for charities, non-profit organisation or motivional talks.So again Library or no library we are leaving in a open world and open society where flow of knowledge is limitless either it is magic or making a bomb. I choose magic for sure! :lol:

Speaking of which, would you like to take part in any of the charity performances that we have coming up? :)

we could set up a site which is password protected.. u have to go thru testssss at outing sto see wheteer u r up to it.. thenthe password is given t the member to access the things.. but we have to make sure that it is a secure site and the space is big

well i think, if any person who is interested in certain materials, they would be saving up to buy it. A magic library online wouldn't work, whether does it contain quiz or etc. If a person is truly interested, he will source out for materials instead of waiting for a library to update itself with new materials.

This is what i think.

If i were to design the questions, I'd design 100 questions taking that the infomation is priceless. You'd have to get 95% correct, and question one would look something like this:

There are two stacks with the word Si Stebbins in it. What is the first one and what is the second one?