I've been here a while and I see that most of the threads in the Mentalism sub-category seem to just be talking about specific effects that fall under the mentalism genre rather than any kind of deep discussion seen in the Card forum.

So just a call out to people there... Are there anyone who's main concentration is Mentalism? And while I'm at it, are there any performers in Singapore who specialises in Mentalism?

*dons Cerebro and rubs bald head to generate psychic energy* :g:

Hey. Just as you, i specialise in mentalism after shifting from card magic about 2 years ago. I find that mentalism to me, and to most of the people i do mentalism to, its more intimately related to 'real magic' and not the common tricks,"WOW" effects there is. I like the way people look at me after i finish an effect on mentalism and i know they are wondering "What if i did this or that?..."

I still remember when i started mentalism, i did a mentalism effect, popular to most of you now, the ID, to an uncle. After that, i did some normal card tricks,ACR and so on, and although he was fairly impressed, i was sure that the ID came across hard and he kept telling me to do the trick where "eh i think of a card leh" - to quote him. That was when i realise the real power of mentalism.

Not long after that, i began researching more on mentalism. Since i was still very much a sleight-of-hand artist instead of mentalist, i was skeptical of the impact of mentalism still. One day in school, i performed a mental card routine i put together - phase 1 - spectator thinks of a card and takes it out of a deck put on his palm face down and sandwich with the other hand. I proceed to reveal in derren b's style. phase 2 - 4 additional cards are used with the selection face down on table, mixed up with my back turned and then i eliminate slowly to the selection.

I composed this routine as a test routine to mentalism and i did it to one of my friends in school with all my classmates as spectators. After that, everyone was impressed and they shouted out loud in wonder. Note: they are boys! Then the main guy who i did it to say "woah this is good man! last time you always do those hide here hide there, now damn good!"

That was it. I knew mentalism has to be it. So since then, i quit handling cards like a magician, called pack instead of deck, do not do fancy spreads.
I think its important, since most of the spectators do not handle cards well, i think its important that you are alike them, that is to be poor handler of cards, in order to build a rapport with them. They know you wont be doing sneaky stuff and wont be trying to catch you out.

Therefore, i conclude that mentalism to me, is most like real magic possible, and im sure to most others as well.

Thanks.

Hmm.. I'm not a performer but more of a hobbist. But my interest lies 99% in mentalism, doest that count?
*follows the calling~

im not a deep fan of mentalism as mentalism effects (i know of) are not so direct as they involve cards or other items.i would say those by derren brown are what i called real good mentalism.however i wouldnt deny the impact of ID,mindpower,cassandra deck.

Pambudi is a wonderful mentalist who is in Singapore and also a SMC member.
I really enjoyed his performances during the MMF mini convention and at the Magicial Theatre Restaurant where he did a performance.

I think mentalism is more amazing because of how today's spectators' view magic. Most attribute your effects to "fast hands", thus detracting from the overall impact of your trick. Mentalism, on the other hand, shuts even the most skeptical of skeptics up when done properly. No matter whether or not you believe in magic, the lingering feeling that someone may just have invaded your mind makes the effect that much stronger. Having said that, mentalism routines do not do it for me because I do not like the handling of most of them. For example, PK Silverware was all misdirection. "Fusion" routines are good for me though.

I dislike it when people feel that one form of magic is "more amazing" than another.

What is wrong with people saying it's fast hands? If you have kept them entertained and amazed, that is more improtant than keeping the impact of your trick to utter shock and mystifying. I just don't agree when people say they must do HIGH IMPACT, MIND BLOWING, NUMBING, COMPLETELY SHOCKING TO THE POINT OF EXTREME magic effects and forget about entertainment, presentation, audience control and such.

Ok whatever. All off topic.

Anyway, I am a card magician, but here and there I like to do a few simple mentalism effects. Anybody direct me to good sources for mentalism?

Card magic has been around for so long that some people aren't really amazed when they see it. As someone said in another thread, they just tend to go "Uh okay". I don't have anything against card magic, and I do think that it can be entertaining, which in the end is what matters. But, I do think that metalist effects are more "amazing". I'm not saying that it is better, just more like real magic.

I can say, mentalism is the most expensive yet propless magic u can find. most of the stuffs that i am starting is super expensive.

But the knowledge behind those lectures are great, and it stays on, take an example is banacek's physco subtitles.

So, take an example pambudi, his acts are cunning quite strong, but i can say, it take more guts than ability to pull off mentalism acts. because, mentalism are sleightless, u have to perform it using verbal or body language, which its called sleight of mind. So how to perfect it, is doing those acts repeatly on different audience and learn how to audience pick and language control.

Mr pambudi did it very well, his acts are very convincing and strong, its not because he is pro or what, its because he believe he can control the audience, once he have the control, he can do anything he wan, very similar to hypnosis, but of course its not. alot of time, audience are juz not at ur side, in this case, u have to play around with ur cards, and do other stuffs that can be done with minimal control. But of course, the impact is lessen, but why waste the whole performance juz to impress people? When people starts to listen to you and believe you, then u pull off the harder stunts and magic, then it really hit them super hard.

U guys seen Pambudi's show, and u know that it hit really damn hard when he pull the hardest magic off successful, and when the trick fails him initally, he juz give it up and continue with other effects.

this is so true....

That's why I just stick to the basic stuff and books that give value for money.

Its easier on the pocket that way.

Well think about it. Which would have a greater impact on someone?

1. Something that they can explain.
2. Something that they cannot explain.

I'm not saying that mentalism is stronger than card magic. Personally I think that all forms of magic should be practiced and mastered.

When you are doing card magic, ' Wow you have fast hands ', isn't a very good response.

Just my 2 cents worth.

anneman book.

ver practical. since the book is called practical mental magic.

and to maddened: pal how deep you wanna get into? :P
why not you start the ball rolling and i'm sure lots of ppl here in SMC can continue the discussion.

I'm not a pure mentalist but i do know a bit about mentalism

IMHO i thinkit's kinda inappopriate to discuss about centre tear, peek etc like what we're doing in card magic section: discuss about DL and passes.

since for mentalism, sleight is less important.

Maybe we can discuss about how we should present a mind reading to make it looked like real mind reading, or we can discuss about different method of presenting our mentalism effect, how to make it more interactive, how to make more audiences participate, how to control the audience, how to make our effect more "believable" etc.

Maddened you start a new topic and i'll follow-up and add my view. :)

Well, recently i am crazy over mentalism card tricks.
Mocking bird is crazy!!!! Is it called "mocking bird"?
Anyway, mentalise is cool, as long as you dont overdo it. haha :g:

I cannot agree more.

All magic has the potential to be strong.

"The card expert commands the respect and admiration of those who watch him because apparently he does not manipulate the cards." - Expert Card Technique

And the above quote should (ideally) apply to all forms of magic.

Few people do solely mentalism. I am not an expert in mentalism, but I feel that mentalism does allow more easily for a better presentation because it is usually less sleight-intensive and hence more attention can be paid on the performance itself. Of course, again, all magic has the very same potential (although to achieve it with sleight-intensive types of magic may be more difficult, but definitely possible).

But effect-wise, mentalism is usually (but it does not have to be) very clean, simple and special (to do with the mind), such that many people do remember it well.

I would say try to expose yourself to more types of magic, even if you do not perform them, it will definitely help in your appreciation of the art. For mentalism, I have heard that Anneman's Practical Mental Magic is a good start. Corinda's 13 Steps to Mentalism is good too.

Haha... Cool... I have a few topics in mind to discuss about and maybe will slowly talk about them in this forum.

But basically just wish to talk more about things beyond just effects. Ok thanks bro for your support... ^_^

Wait Maddened... you have cerebro!?!!

Whoa...

Anyways, I think most will be surprised to hear that my first love is mentalism.

However, after doing a few shows of full mentalism ( erm.. like 3 shows?)... of pure derren brown style, I had oly one show where the audience went nuts... that show was for an older audience... actually a whole bunch of policemen.. Anyways, they liked it. Somehow I don't think I can get many gigs of that sort. Magic show audiences almost always consist of the little ones who don't understand half of what you're doing...

Honest feedback from friends who've seen both my std magic show and my mentalism act made me decide to drop the mentalism act.

Nonetheless, mentalism, as said above, remain as my first love as I continue buying and reading books as well as perform it in impromptu settings... (No props needed!)

I realize that the singapore audience isn't ready for mentalism yet... either that or I need to grow a big grey beard!

What kind of responses do you guys get when doing a full mentalism act? Is it all positive?

P.S I truly miss the kick you get after a successful dual reality effect! You are the only one who knows what truly is happening... ain't that cool

I have a sense that Singaporean audiences aren't ready for mentalism yet. That said, Pambudi's acts seem to be very popular nonetheless. I think it may be a matter of packaging. If you come off looking weird, exotic or psychotic, you might have a better chance to convince people you have real powers.

I've been debating about whether to present what I do as real or simply psychological (ala Derren Brown, Chan Canasta) for some time and still haven't reached any conclusions yet. It'll still take a lot of convincing no matter which path you choose.

I have to disagree with you about the "no props" bit though. Most mentalism does require a few props and preparation no? Unless you keep doing the CT again and again and again till everyone is tired of it. At the very least, you'll still need a deck of cards, just for some variety.

Then again, maybe I'm just uncreative. :lol:

I think mentalism gets the best reactions! People don't upfront with mentalism because they are stun! They don't know what to make of it. Card tricks, they are WOW! so they clap. They know you did something with the cards, somehow. Mentalism, they are not "wow". They are stunned silent. They go back and that is where it bothers them. "Did that magician use spirits? Was he just an illusionist?" Mentalism tricks make them go crazy inside their heads.

Mentalism is a trend now.

Does it get a better reaction? I don't know, but i hope it's not true. But most of the time, when i saw people perform mentalsim, it looks more like another card trick. And the reason why it seems to get better reaction, i think, is due to the elimination of the possibility of sleight of hand that is strongly associated with cards.

Well, probably the trend will die off some time.

Maybe we should think in a more positive way...

1. Is there a way to make "Wow you have fast hands" a good response?

2. If the above is not possible, how can we eliminate that comment?

I am more in favour of trying to make "fast hands" a good response, instead of limiting our minds to "oh, that comment is bad".

Breakthrough!

And just to keep the thread on topic: I think mentalism can be very strong. And i agree that mentalism is the closest to real magic, because of its "proplessness". If you really can do real magic, you would not be exactly holding a pack of cards...

Currently trying out mentalism by myself. Quite fun.

- harapan ong, previously panpanpan

That's why I don't like mental effects using playing cards ( this was discussed in another thread in the SMC forums)

Yeah, hope the trend dies off soon too...and everyone just goes back to doing card magic. Yay!!!

I'm with Jeff... Hope this trend dies soon, and leave mentalism to people like us... :lol:

But seriously, mentalism is probably the hardest and most expensive "cousin" to magic. In terms of cost, only big-stage illusions beat it. But in doing mentalism well... not easy man... Sigh...

So what would you say is the hardest part about most mentalism effects? The tricks? Preparation? Patter? The style and acting skills of the performer?

whether mentalism is hard or not depends on how you present mentalsim. As i said some people perform mentalism like some card tricks (or just tricks), which is perfectly ok. Thats your choice. But, if you are striving for something similar to what derren brown (or any other professional mentalist) did , and at the same time capture the interest of the audience, then it is VERY HARD. I myself don't do mentalism, even though i do read quite a lot about the subject.

since i mention derren brown, i might as well mention that he use playing cards too.

I think the answer will vary according to what you hope to achieve.

But at every stage, there's difficulty.

First is how you present yourself. For a card man, the "show" begins when he leans forward onto the table, places his hands out in front of him, and starts addressing the people around. For the mentalist, the "show" begins the very moment he appears, whether he has started doing anything or not. The moment the audience sees the mentalist, he must be preforming mentalism already, if you get what I mean. An example is how might you feel if you went for a Max Maven show for the first time, not knowing who he is, and before the show you spotted him in the lobby wearing shorts, a singlet with a straw hat and gaudy sunglasses while playing the bongo, and minutes later you see the crisp, sharp, and polished Max Maven on stage telling you he can really read minds?

What I accrue my abilities to is another argument altogether, and a very nasty one at that so we'll leave that aside, but that is a very difficult part of mentalism already, even before you started performing anything. Do you want to come off as a real psychic? Or a Chan Canasta/Derren Brown psychological reader type? Or do you want to say your abilities are due to the vibrational frequencies that make up the inner spiritual animal of everyone, and which is all linked to a sentient being called Aasharew? Deciding this means deciding your style, the type of effects you will perform, and even the methods you will use.

Then comes the acting bit in convincing the audience what I'm doing is mentalism (and seriously, only mentalists with no lives would bother arguing the difference between mental magic and mentalism, of which I am one of them... :lol:), and for that reason I try to make it as genuine and as authentic as I can. That for me is the most difficult part, in convincing the audience that it's not just tricks, but something else. The acting involved basically. The minimalistic style of Blaine just won't cut it with most mentalism.

And making audience understand what is going on and what has taken place is also hard. I always say that when you strip mentalism down to its barest form, it's nothing more than one mind reading another mind. Everything else is "dressing up". Instead of reading a random thought, you have the person throw a dart at a large map to pick a country, or you take three sets of random numbers to decide a page number and a line number and a word number before you divine the word on the page. And in the endeavour of every mentalist to be different, special, creative, we end up creating more and more complex stuff, which is inevitable too. There is only so much appeal and there are only so many times you can do a CT before things get boring.

Thus people always say that mentalists talk a lot or that mentalism routines are very talky. Because half the time you're explaining what's going on and what's going to happen. So it's easy for the audience to get lost if they're not listening or concentrating to what you're saying. The hard part comes when you have to pare down your patter so it's engaging, yet comprehensive, and in many cases deceptive. Patter is no longer something that just goes along with the trick, but a very essential component in making the effect possible.

And because no mindreading can take place if there is no spectator or audience (unless you fancy reading your own mind for 1 hour), audience management, people skills, "sensing" a crowd, creating rapport, communication skills, knowing and creating atmosphere, building audience sympathy, voice projection, stage movements, space usage, prop placement, speech intonations, vocabulary, visual actions, and more are also of importance. These are some of the things that big-stage illusionists have to think of and grapple with, and some of the things won't bother close-up magicians as much, but for mentalism, it's almost like a stage show all the time, even in intimate and close-up situations. Do you choose to conduct the next experiment with the man lady sitting next to you, or the lady sitting across you. Do you want to stand or stay seated? Where do you put your hands? Where do you leave your props? On the table or in your jacket? How might wearing a fancy looking ring affect things? And so on, and so on...

Like Icy said, if you're doing mental magic, then you can get away with a lot without doing a lot. But if you're aiming to do mentalism justice and present it right, present it seriously, then take a look at what I've mentioned above and you'll only have seen a fraction of what goes into good mentalism. I've not even yet mentioned how to handle screw-ups, building a cohesive and coherent act, what props to use and what to avoid, how to handle props, blah blah blah...

Sorry I couldn't give a short answer to your question. Maybe I think too much, (and that is entirely possible), but even as of now I'll still working out the first problem of how I want to appear to my audience, and if you think of a mentalism act as a well-made machine, your persona is the outside hull or shell of the machine, which determines how big the machine is going to be, what colour it is, and how strong will it be. :)

Naturally you don't have to agree with anything I've said here, and you're welcome to feel I'm complicating matters too much, but well, you asked what I think is hard about mentalism and these are just my very long-winded thoughts. Hee... :g:

I think Maddened was spot on in his posts above.

Mentalism (IMO) requires more preparation. It's so much more than just doing a trick/effect. Its trying your utmost to make them believe.

Acting, timing (not just when executing the sleights), vocal intonation, proper injection of subtleties and little spots of cold reading incorporated into your patter and maybe some bits of wit and lastly good effects...I think that's the recipe for good mentalism/mental magic.

These are the stuff I am trying to achieve someday, hopefully, maybe.... :P

Maddened,

I thought that that was a very good analysis of mentalism. Really enjoy reading your posts.

theres something funny about magicians in singapore (not saying those who are the great 1s) its like monkey see monkey do....
whenever a new trick or a new person become famous everybody is following it.....

david blaine --- every1s into street

criss angel--- most of magicians suddenly got to engrossed in levitations

derren brown---- suddenly every1 is into mentalism lol...what the heck dude!

i think its just the trend nowadays like those fashion trends!
its only on how u look at it :)

e.g russian roulette---when dvd is out they are like doing it for normal street magic routine but i saw 2 mentalist did this for their show in the tv

to me every trickery is for normal magician and mentalist.its only how they perform i think! cheers! :!!:

Funny you should say Singaporean. I would have thought it would be a common trend amongst magicians globally.

I disagree with you when you say it's a "monkey see monkey do" type of mentality. It's watching these good magicians perform in a new and interesting kind of way that keeps us interested in magic. Would you be interested in watching the same tricks over and over again? While the style in which it is presented may be different and unique to the performer, after watching the 100 people perform the 2 card monte, I don't think you'll be very interested in what the 101st guy is doing. When you see a guy performing something new, or in a different way, you'll be inspired by it and want to try something new. Nothing wrong with wanting to learn new stuff.

Also, many magicians started learning magic after they developed an interest in it through watching another magician perform. Therefore, obviously if Blaine is on TV most of the time, more new magicians will be performing like Blaine (Oh horror!).

And, I have no idea what you are trying to say in the last line.

And, I think we are going off topic.