This debate goes about as far back as the "Mentalism vs. Mental Magic" debate. Few people these days think about it and personally I didn't really think about it that much because playing cards are convenient, and gives the illusion of randomness of choice.

But more and more I'm wondering if it's such a good idea to be using cards in mentalism, especially if the audience has seen card magic of some kind (and who hasn't). After a couple of card effects, they might start thinking you have a trick deck or it's sleight of hand or there are trapdoors somewhere in the deck.

And here's the strange thing. If one using a normal deck of cards, the audience tends to be less interested in what's happening, and the frisky ones might even attempt to grab the cards, handle them rougly etc, bascially not treating the deck with much respect. But change the effect to use a deck of tarot cards instead, and the reaction and attitude of the audience changes too.

So I don't know. I like to hear what everyone has to say. You don't have to agree or disagree, I just like to know what do you all think about using cards for mentalism. Cheers.

(And there's must be a reason why even though Derren Brown's a fantastic cardician, he almost never uses them on his shows.)

:off: Tarot cards sound interesting. Where can I find them?

EDIT: Forgot to add in my views on the topic.
I think it doesn't really matter if cards are used. Card magic can be performed successfully even if people think sleight of hand is employed. Mentalism/ mental magic (not really sure of the difference here) should work fine as well.

Tarot cards can be found in Kinokuniya even. More exotic varieties may require you to go to some of new age shops or something. Though keep in mind that Tarot cards should be treated with respect and care. Not only because of its mystical associations, but also because if a spectator sees you flourishing with Tarot cards or dropping them left, right, centre, he too will lose the kind of awe for the cards, and indirectly, lose respect for you. I personally handle my Tarot decks as though they contain the secret of the cosmos and should I accidentally drip curry sauce on them or something, they'll rise up from their cards in the middle of the night and tickle me to death in my sleep...

Thanks for the input. ;)

You can find them at kinokuniya in taka? i remember seeing them once. ^_^

anyway, with cards, you're suppose to show everything's fair. then again, back to reality :lol: , card with mentalism can be interesting too. you keep predicting their card over and over again. :wacko:

it's true that cards doindicate a random choice so i guess it's okay? In fact, using cards once in a while is definetely more interesting then "I want you to think of a number. What's is it? 7? i knew it!" ^_^

:off: Or you can do this. Have them pick a card. Ask the name of the card. Upon hearing it, just laugh and laugh(you can even slap your knee or roll on the ground if you like) ---> i took this from the Just For Laugh Gags show where the person who reads palm(palmist?) laughs at everyone's palm. :lol:

Aaron

Yeah look at Kino for a large variety :) Murphys only has the Raider White Tarot (regular and mini)... but the ones at Kino are pretty expensive tho!

I know kino sells them, but they're quite expensive. Thanks for the quick response.

Erm actually i don't really with the use of playing cards for mentalism. The minute you take out a pack of playing cards, your spectators know that you're good at controling them and it's not magical anymore.

if you're really able to read people's mind, you wont need a deck of cards.

well, i_neverregret, i regret that i have to disagree with you. ^_^

true, some people will think that you may be good. BUT how will they know if you never show them your skills before. i mean, If the minute you take out a pack of playing cards, and the very next second you drop it and start crawling around looking for the deck, that wouldn't be very impressive now, would it? it would make you look like a dork and people will think you wouldn't know how to open them, let alone control them. :lol:

oh and if you're REALLY able to read people's mind, you won't need a job at all. you would be RICH!!! :lol:

just my thoughts again.

Aaron :!!:

If you are able to read minds, you don't need that pad of paper and a pen to write the number down.

If you are able to read minds, you won't need a lock and a key and predict which key will the audience choose.

If you are able to read minds, you won't need your coins to flip them around.

If you are able to read minds, you will be earning money with your powers instead of trying to do such simple feats.

Right?

The whole thing is, use cards if you want to. No problem. But GIVE A REASON for doing so.

Such as... cards have a special design to them that makes it easier for me to predict.

Or just a simple "This mind reading feat would need a pack of cards, your brain, and my brain."

Simple as that.

I think it depends on how you present yourself.

If you present yourself as someone who is capable to read mind thru body language etc, you wont be using cards.

pan you misunderstood what i tried to say. :g:

I mean the moment you take out a pack of cards...they know you can control them. Orelse why would you take out a deck of cards? Because to me, if you're using any other thing as medium for mind reading, it's still alright but cards are such a common tool for magicians. The impression is there.

to the audiences a pad of paper is harder to manipulate. ;)

:g: why would you take out a deck of cards in the 1st place if you cant control them? If you really need a medium...i think...just tell them to write it down.

I think it depends on how you present yourself.

If you present yourself as someone who is capable to read mind thru body language etc, you wont be using cards.

pan you misunderstood what i tried to say. :g:

I mean the moment you take out a pack of cards...they know you can control them. Orelse why would you take out a deck of cards? Because to me, if you're using any other thing as medium for mind reading, it's still alright but cards are such a common tool for magicians. The impression is there.

to the audiences a pad of paper is harder to manipulate. ;)

:g: why would you take out a deck of cards in the 1st place if you cant control them? If you really need a medium...i think...just tell them to write it down.

i thought that's our job to make them believe that we can read people's mind? :!!:

I know where you are coming from Maddened.

Mentalism purists will avoid using playing cards as much as possible, especially those that want to distance themselves as much as possible from magic.
It is not an invalid arguement perhaps, that playing cards MIGHT give the impression of trickery.

But the flipside is, of course, when you remove playing cards altogether, you are removing a LARGE portion of effects, some of them perhaps very powerful. Is that price too much to pay?

IMHO, i don't think it matters too much if you use it subtly and sparingly.
Althought i suspect it's not too difficult to come up with a 30 mins mentalism routine that completely doesn't use any playing cards at all.

My views on this are that the moment you bring out a deck of cards for mental effects, some people might instantly suspect trickery.

I feel that mentalism (as well as magic) done without cards is more fun and varied, and many in the audience would feel less insecure (cards generally provide a very small focus for all that attention).

But if you have to use cards, maybe try to put it into your presentation (as if you would have to use it).
-Tarrot cards
-Alphabet cards
-Word cards (like flash cards)
-etc

Many would be less likely to suspect trickery in the above decks then the regular playing cards.

And if playing cards are necessary for a certain effect which you want/have to perform, then you can minimise distraction from suspicion arising from the use of playing card by (in order of my preference, from the most preferred):
-Having them examine the deck or show it to them from the very start (assuming ungimmicked)
-Have a smaller effect done prior to the main effect using the very same deck to condition the audience (such that you can even switch the deck)
-Subtly show that the deck is "normal" (assuming gimmicked) and try not to bring attention to the deck
-Show them the deck (as cleanly as possible) but try not to bring too much attention to the deck (assuming gimmicked)

Generally, if your deck is ungimmicked (not much problem), if your deck is gimmicked, then its a little harder for you...

Yes indeed! Which makes this a rather difficult decision to make.

I think it was T.A. Waters who advocated using Tarot cards for any playing card effects. But of course about 100 pages later he gives about ten different effects with playing cards... <_<

I forgot who it was when describing an effect, made special mention of shuffling the cards with "apparent difficulty" to disarm the spectators, least they think you're really just using sleight of hand. The cheeky thing about this effect was that it IS accomplished with some use of sleight of hand. :P

Better yet, give the cards away as a keepsake :) Assuming ungimmicked of course.

All very good points gordie! I think can add in one other suggestion: Use jumbo cards. The size throws them off and they think that no sleights are possible... But we know better... Muahahahaa... :ph43r:

Actually, in my humble opinion, you don't have to worry too much about using cards in mentalism because when I was a layman, I would be just as amazed by the tricks whether or not it involved cards.

I think it's very important to remember we are performing for (mostly) laymen, they don't know much. WE, the magicians, are the ones to always worry about how it would look.

An example: Jerome was performing Sinful to my friend last week. From my angle, I could see everything. And because I knew the handling, I kept worrying that my friend would see through, but the truth is, he didn't and he had no idea how.

Another thing I would like to add, sometimes you can just come up with some "scientific" explaination for your mental effects, they might not believe it but it sounded more plausibe for them, instead of trying to act like you really have psychic powers.

Just some humble views from me.

That's a good point Axl. But don't you think that it's precisely a layman who would notice such inconsistencies more like the deck of cards and get suspicious? Or feel it's an inconsistent act?

I personally am not sure, so wish to get your opinion on this.

I think using cards doesn't diminish the "mental-ness" of an effect or a mentalist.

Take Richard Osterlind for example, he is one famous mentalist who goes around the world doing strong mental shows using cards in them. He did mention in either his dvds or some of his books how you should approach using cards for mentalism thou.
Summary
- be clumsy with cards, show them you are NOT the guy with magic fingers and cards swirve like the dragon in your hands. ie, you are not a magician.
- give some reason to use cards for mental act. 52 cards represent 52 weeks of the year? 4 suits, 4 seasons? Or if they just happen to be RIGHT in the environment, like a mini gathering where ppl are playing cards? There are tons of reasons why you are using cards for mental demostrations, you just got to find one that suits you, your environment, and the audience.

Lastly, i would like to say that Derren Brown DOES use cards often in his 1v1 demostrations in his shows. But most of the time he is dealing with groups of people or in a outdoor environment or something else where cards just don't seem right. If you notice in his shows, when he does cards, it's either a after dining casual thing, or a 1v1 challenge of the mind, or in a casino.. It's really more about how, why and when you use them.

Well, so far nobody has ever questioned me why I need to use a deck. Most of the people actually (I think) like to enjoy the magic and see what you can do. The only question that will come up is whether the cards are marked or gimmicked. Of course, I think most of us are much better than using gaft decks (except ID, perhaps).

Even a impromptu effect like Stigmata, you need them to write their name on a name card. So unless the spectators are really out to heckle you, they usually won't bother about you using cards or paper.

That's my experience on performing mental magic, hope it answer your question, Maddened.

How many are seriously pure mentalists anyways? If you do showoff other types of magic, I think it's perfectly fine to do it with playing cards. It's all about context, simply put, at the end of the day :)

But imho, i think it's BETTER to use ESP decks... that's kinda what's expected of you anyways, that's why these special cards were formulated and produced because it's what 'psychics use' ;)

Jeff Gan, the best mentalist in Malaysia I know, swears bythe Beyond ESP 2 deck. And i personally recommend it, it's extremely devious... maybe Maddened can post a review of it once he picks his own set from me this weekend *grin*

ningy ^_^

Ning,

I'm flattered, but you're seriously over over over overrating me.
I'm just a noob, seriously.

i think its all about presentation actually no matter with cards or no cards...peace! layman wont even know dudes....

example is mind power d*c*ks ...it is for mentalist (most usage of it)
but its a poker deck too....hmmmmmmm

Suddenly, something else struck me. I mean other than the news of my state of extreme poverty.

Depending on your focus and motive, maybe playing cards can be a good thing. In fact, you can even structure a whole mentalism act with just playing cards, theoretically speaking of course.

Imagine you're not doing your private stage show, but a corporate presentation trade show. In your normal show, you might want the audience to believe that you somehow have some powers, and part of the entertainment of the show, or the driving force behind it is you demonstrating your powers, maybe under "test conditions".

But in a trade show, your aim is to sell the products/service of your client. The focus is not on you, but the client. There's no point in doing a whole Uri Geller/Alien thingamajig thing. In fact you probably have to downplay your personality a little, to give more attention to the sales pitch.

As for your audience, they're made up of company buyers who aren't out here miles and miles from home exploring the weerd side of mind, time, and space. They're here to try and make money (eventually). And they probably have seen tons and tons of sale booths with magicians, and maybe even hired a couple before, knowing full well that they're just doing tricks.

So in such a situation, obviously cards can be used. Heck, even a change bag with big stars and a fluffy bunny design can be used and it wouldn't matter to them as much as the products and the sales pitch.

And maybe, just maybe, using cards for mentalism effects give you a slight edge. While other magicians for other companies are locating your card in their wallet, or cutting to the aces, you're using them to read their minds. It's something different, something fresh, but the most important thing for them is still is still to hear the sales pitch.

I can even imagine the first line to grab the buyer in a trade show where there are other magicians around, "I'm sure you've seen some other company representatives do incredible things with cards like finding the aces, or taking your card and making them appear in unlikely places. But here with XXX company, we like to take the same resources (takes out cards), and do unique and different things with them, without losing any of the fun and impact. Let me show you what I mean." and so on and so on...

So I suppose your starting point is the key. If you're going to convince people you're doing what you're doing through authentic means and not trickery, then I feel cards should be avoided as much as possible. If your starting premise and aim is different from that of the psychic entertainer, then heck, deal away to close the deal (sorry can't resist the pun)...

I saw a set of tarot cards at borders today. Wheelock Place.

Hey.

One of my favourite card mental effects is Out of Sigh Out of Mind by (apparently) Dai Vernon. Its taught in Crash Course One. Vernon is a genius see if you can get you hands on his books.

CSJ