This was mentioned in the other thread, but as ming astutely pointed out, it was kind of off-topic.

But I do feel this is something worth discussing about, thus this new thread.

hoaxter feels that mentalism is just like a fashion trend and it's a "monkey see, monkey do" kind of mentality that drives this apparent surge in interest. (If this is not a fair summary, do correct me.)

Personally, while I agree with what ming said in the other thread that it's not just people copying one famous magician after another, I also feel that the premise is wrong in the first place.

Mentalism has always been a very popular branch of magic and performance. So much so that it's considered by many as a "higher" art than other magic (which I don't really agree with, and which is outside the scope of this topic).

From the 18th mediums (where we actually get a lot of the mentailsm principles and methods from) to Dunninger on radio, to Kreskin on TV, to Banachek in research labs, to Geller in your house ("Everyone just say bend! bend! bend!"), to Derren Brown, the lay appeal and the popularity amongst its practitioners have never really gone down.

For a comparison, consider chapeaugraphy which was immensely popular during the 19th and early 20th Centuries (if I'm not wrong), but have since seen little light of day.

So I'll say that this interest in mentalism isn't because of Derren Brown alone. Maybe in Singapore he matters to a larger extent than in the global scene, and certainly what Derren did for mentalism was ground-breaking and thought-provoking; style-setting even, but it's definitely not just a trend.

I say this not because I aim to be a mentalist, or because I'm predominantly interested in mentalism. This is something that I've noticed from what I am exposed to in mentalism.

However, I understand too how people might say that mentalism is a trend. Derren, and maybe Criss Angel (shudder... he's exposing effects in his new Mindfreak season so I do hate him now...) certainly sparked interest, and a quick survey will reveal many got into mentalism because of these figures. So I'm not sure that hoaxter doesn't have a point.

Anyway, love to hear what others think, and maybe even share how did you got interested in mentalism. :)

I did read the other thread and it's my opinion that hoaxter is a little hasty in drawing his conclusions.

Most of the mentalist in here seems much more influenced by other famous mentalist than by Darren Brown, although he is held in high regards.
And Darren Brown is hardly considered mainstream. At least I haven't really seen his stuff on TV locally.
And anyways, mentalism isn't exactly taking the scene in singapore by storm. Yes, there are some really keen ones like Maddened, Pambudi, theWeaver, Jeff, etc who feel that they prefer mentalism to other schools in magic. But I don't exactly see people throwing away their cards in favour of the drawing board yet.
It seems to be there is still much more card enthusiasts. And i completely cannot see the arguement that mentalism is bought on by Darren Brown.

So I don't see this has a "trend", simply because it's not exactly that hot right now. :!!:

A note Aloy, it's Derren Brown, not Darren Brown. Hehe. Please do not mis-spell my favourite "magician". :P

Firstly, what trend?
I don't see any sudden influx of mentalism lovers.
There may be abit more Derren Brown fans popping up, but generally that doesn't mean mentalism fans. Firstly, i doubt most Derren Brown fans would NOT prefer cards and flourishes to mentalist effects. In case that sentence ain't too clear, what i am trying to say is, probably most Derren Brown fans are from another field of magic altogether. Cards people, Balls and Cups people, Flourish people, they might have caught on the controversy of the recent Derren Brown series or specials and started to fancy him. But that doesn't mean they will throw their cards or cups and balls away. So what trend of Mentalism is there?

Each field of magic will continue to enjoy it's own group of followers. Faze or craze, not that i've seen any.. But even if there is, i'm sure things will still remain the same after sometime. I don't think anyone, or any trend can affect the structure of magic and its placing.

Oh, and yes, i realised, i've been drifting out of topic ever so much again as i type.. So let me answer a question by Maddened and try to get back on topic. I've started liking Mentalism way before i know Derren Brown. It was way back in 2004, i think.. In a local magic store, where i'm still happily having fun with cards and coins.. Well.. To cut the story short, in came a mentalist who shows me this whole new area /genre of magic that i was never exposed to.. And i realised.. The real reason i love magic in the first place is because of the "cleverness" of it.. And mentalism is like the brain of it all.. The stem of "cleverness".. He (the mentalist) made me realised, i didn't like magic because of the visual impact, not of the disappearing and appearing things, flying stuff.. I like magic because it's mind bloggling.. And what is more mind bloggling than a good mental effect?

Oh well.. Enough of my cr*p talk.. Even i am getting bored of myself.
Nites my mental mates~

hey hey, though i not of a mentalist mentalism, but i do getting into blindfold acts and things related to that. So it still kind of link to mentalism.

I have to agree with aloy that its quite of harsh to judge down everyone just like that. To me, its not a trend, its a phase. Hmm, i still doing card magic, but doing just card magic cannot hold for too long, like wise, for different routines, there are different purposes. For different events, there are different ways to present a magic. You can't do a ACR in a palour or stage event, unless its presented in a different way or you have different aids.

So to me, getting into mentalist acts are a way of me to learn different things, esp presentation and also knowledge, and though it is harder than most other genes, i feel that this gene suits me more, thats why i go into mentalism. And also, not everyone is really cut out to be mentalist, though he or she can do the same act as you, but the reaction will be complete different.

My views are that, exploring into other fields are necessary, and looking into fields that suit you will then benefits you. And exploring in mentalism is the same.

actually i agree with u all ..what i meant was theres no trend in mentalism....

from my point of view is that some magicians are treating it like a trend....
some of them now likes mental magic suddenly change to BLACK magic then when mentalism is famous again they come back saying that they are mentalist again..........this is what i meant,"SOME" not us :)

Uri Geller.

As a child, I remember reading about this guy who could bend spoons with his mind and also read minds.

We're talking about a guy who till this day some still consider the real deal.
He's the reason I love mentalism, that somehow he made half the world believe he had psychic powers. While I don't entirely agree with the his ethics (a subject worthy of a topic by itself), I admire the believabilty of his performances. He had scientist and educated folks believing him...and still does I guess.

As for the surge of popularity (or trend) of mentalism due to DB (Brown not Blaine), I don't know and don't see myself qualified to comment. I've not been in magic long enough to know how many mentalist there was in Singapore (or Malaysia) in the past nor do I know how many there are now or whether there has been a significant increase in numbers since DB's emergence. However, it is very logical that there has been due to the availibility of DVDs released recently by Banachek, Osterlind & Maven which made mentalism easier to learn compared to learning from the old Annemann and Corinda books.

Actually to be very frank, I've not watched any DB performance yet, nor read any of his books.

Just my 2 cents.

And if there really is a trend, I hope it'll die off soon.

Uri Geller? A fake?

See what other magicians say about him.

"You know, I like Uri Geller. He is a good guy. I think he made many things with his abilities. I think some of the things he shows are illusion. But I cannot claim for sure, that this applies to everything."

David Copperfield

"Uri bent a spoon for me, the first time he did it, I thought there must be a trick. The second time I was stunned, completely, completely stunnedand amazed. It just bent in my hand. I've never seen anything like it. It takes a lot to impress me. Uri Geller is for real and anyone who doesn't recognise that is either deluding himself, or is a very sad person."

David Blain,

"Uri had demonstrated his powers under my conditions. I believe that everything that Uri Geller produces is genuine."

Dandi (top Israeli magician - Israel)


"I will say only this: I have seen Uri do things that, even as a mentalist and amateur conjuror of some 30 years, I cannot explain. I know how mind-magicians obtain the effects they do... I know the illusionist's mechanics of producing so-called psychic effects that look incredibly convincing to the layman. However, I can categorically say that Uri Geller uses none of these methods. Quite simply, the man is a phenomenon."

Drew McAdam

More information here.
http://www.uri-geller.com/uri-biography/uribiog4.htm

I do not believe Uri is a magician. He deals with the real stuff.

This is precisely why I love mentalism, its believable.

About Uri Geller, he never convinced Banachek, who i would trust more than both Davids, since he is a master of that field.

I mentioned that mentalism is a trend in the other thread. Perhaps we need to define it. To me, it means a rising interest, that means you don't need to be performing them professionally, but u do read up quite a lot about it.

Well, i still think it is a trend, but it was not started by Derren Brown. He is just a very cool fella who might have some impact.

I guess when you say it's a "trend", people get the impression that it is something temporarily popular that will die off soon. Which is why we say it's not.
It's not really THAT popular (compared to cards), and it's unlikely to die off soon.

I guess I was jumping to conclusions with regards to Derren. My bad! :P

As for Uri Geller... I believe he's not 100% real. Maybe sometimes he gets lazy and just bends spoons with his hands. Whatever the case, he sells his effects many times better than some current top mentalists and magicians can.

But yea, cards will always be the most popular... B)

This is an interesting topic, and there's one aspect here that I think might shed a little light on the issue:

The audience's viewpoint.

Remember, whenever we talk about magic, the audience's viewpoint is of the utmost importance. Magic is essentially a performance, so we cannot neglect the audience.

What I'm about to say next is purely of my own opinion, so please bear with me.

The reason why mentalism isn't all that 'hot' now, especially here in Singapore, is due to the fundamental fact that mentalism is (to me), one of the hardest branches of magic to successfully present.

Bad presentation = bad reactions = eeee I don't like mentalism all that much

Now don't get me wrong, I think that mentalism is one of the most beautiful aspects of magic, and has the biggest potential among magic's other forms (cards, coins etc).

The big problem here, is that the general audience prefers visual magic, which is one of the biggest flaws of mentalism (compared to other forms of magic).

"See how the rings melt into each other? See how this card visually changes into a different card? The ball disappears under this cup, and appears under that one!"

Card magic, coin magic, rope magic, cups and balls etc... all these forms of magic have some sort of presentation inherent in almost all their effects. Take a typical colour change for example. You just perform it, and the audience can SEE the effect (and thus reacts accordingly). And the audiences' reaction will great influence and affirm the magician's choice of magic-form preference.

With mentalism, the audience is generally not treated to any effect that can be experienced using their five senses (unless you're talking about metal bending, which I think isn't a problem on its own).

That is the flaw of mentalism.

But despite this, I feel that mentalism is really one of the strongest branches of magic to explore. The trick here is to present your mental effects in a way that translates to how the audience will FEEL.

And this is where Derren Brown and other successful mentalists have greatly taken into their advantage. No other branch of magic has ever made me feel as strong or as deeply affected as mentalism.

Take Pambudi for example. He manages to capture the audience's laughter and wonder at the same time, which I think is a magical thing in itself.

So don't give up on mentalism. It certainly isn't easy to pull off, but it's truly a wonderous branch of magic if you take the time to explore and learn.

I'm currently writting an ebook on magic presentation, and when it's done (hopefully by the end of the year), I'll release it to you guys and hopefully I can get some feedback on it.

alright that's all I have to say... thank you very much for your attention!

deadsouL

Ooh... A pet topic of mine. If you need to bounce ideas off or have someone proof-read your stuff, I'll be most glad to be of assistance. ^_^
(Maybe even a review of it! Hee...)

Haha sure Maddened, I'll definately be interested in any ideas that anyone here would like to share :)

What sort of areas will you be covering in your ebook? ;) We need to know roughly what will be covered before making any suggestions.

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Vanish my car keys, and I will be dumbfounded.
Read my mind, and I shall be enlightened.
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Has anyone seen a silent mentalism act?

- harapan ong

Hmm.. Interesting question.. Nope i have not seen a silent mentalism act before.. Silent magic acts makes sense cause visually it can appeal and present the trick well, but mentalism is more of a verbal magic.. Silent mentalism.. Hmm..

Uhm, silent treatment presented in a more serious mentalism manner? ;) Good mental magic's about solid presentation isn't it?

ning

this is getting waaaaay off topic. :off:

Haha, off topic. To heck with it.

Sorry, Ms Ning, what I meant was a mental or mind reading effect, whether on or off stage, without any words.

Example... like... doing a book test without speaking or placards with words written on it.

Doing key predictions without speaking.

Anyone seen them before?

You might get what I am driving at.

- harapan ong aka panpanpan

I suppose it's entirely possible, but what would the point be? Unless not speaking is part of the effect, or the condition of silence enhances the illusion.

Some time ago, I was reading a thread on the Cafe about doing a mentalism act blind-folded. Not just blindfold routines, but doing everything else literally blind.
(Actually the whole idea was for the performer to come on stage acting blind with big shades, and removing them at the end of the show to let the see that he's not truly blind, but beneath the shades his eyes are fully covered up with tape, coins, dough etc.)

After much debate, I had to agree with the ones who think that the idea was pretty dumb (no pun intended). Not because you're cheating the audience into believing you're something you're not (blind in this case... though you are telling them you're psychic or whatever when you're technically... not), but because after much discussion, everyone realised the "blind" gimmick or angle contributes nothing to the effects if the effect didn't call for the performer to be blind-folded.

So unless like the "Silent Treatment" effect, where your prediction is in your mouth all the time (that's why you can't speak), what kind of advantages would performing a silent mentalism act have over a "normal" one?

And if the reason is so that you can perform for a group of people who are hearing impaired, then I think you're seriously better off doing some kind of manipulation or more visual act than a mentalism one. Just my opinion.

Not being a mental person, I just want to share this view of mine.

Mentalism is one of the hardest branches in magic, especially in terms of presentation and showmanship.

What I meant when I said silent mentalism act is not whether it is practical or not, it is more of whether it can be done or not. I am quite sure some creative guy would do it, but currently I know of no one who does silent mentalism routines. (I don't mean blindfolding)

Mentalism is a great way to go further in presenting your magic. Like our Mr Kevin Ho said, vanishing car keys is something that looks magical - but reading minds actually touches the person's cerebral regions and make them go "OH... My... god."

It has potential to change how people think, but it isn't easy. No free lunch, eh?

- harapan ong aka panpanpan

I doubt anyone here is mental :D


In my opinion, I think that while it seems possible that a silent mentalism act can be done, there's no reason why someone would do it. I don't think it will make the effects stronger, or leave the spectator with a better impression.

By the way, what does blindfolding have to do with silent mentalism?

Mr ming, I restate my point that I am not saying that we should do silent mentalism acts. Yes, it might not make the effect stronger. Yes, it may have no reason for anyone to do it.

I am just saying no one has ever done silent mentalism (as I know of), because I believe that mentalism needs good presentation, good grasp of language, good amount of knowledge and showmanship.

Can completely silent mentalism be done in the first place?

I don't think because there's hardly a reason to do silent mentalism, then no one in the world does it.

There's hardly any reason to expose magic secrets, but Penn and Teller did it.

Can completely silent mentalism be done in the first place?

- harapanong

Totally new to magic and stuff but here goes nothing:

When I was young, waay way young, like four or something, I remember watching these TV shows in which people could bend spoons and read minds(etc. JeanGrey from Xmen), call me childish or naive or whatever, but i really liked these fictional characters, i repeat, FICTIONAL, and i really wanted to be like them. However, I know now that that is not really possible.

Another reason why I really like the "Mentalism" branch of magic is due to the simple fact that it intriuges people. It is mystifying; it draws their attention. I don't know whether it's just me, but the look on their faces when you do something so "psychic" just makes me love it even more.

Of course, there has been the centuries old debate on whether certain people really possess "psychic abilities", but I am really on the fence with that stand. Personally, I don't really know whether certain people actually have such abilities, but I can't be bothered to care either. However, if someone reaaaally had psychic abilities, that would be waay cool.

Basically, I don't think mentalism will be as popular as, say, card magic, because people in Singapore EASILY get freaked out by such acts. It's okay if you do card tricks that involve sleight of hand, because it involves good hand-eye coordination, and the audience knows that, but if you choose to do mentalism routines, SINGAPOREANS(and to a lesser extent, Asians) are bound to be scared of you.

Just my two cents.
:ph43r:

Sorry to intrude (i'm no mentalist) but I really liked the idea of a silent mentalism act.

It would also leave quite an impression. Picture a mentalist with very exagerated expressions, weird eyes staring all over, pointing at what you SHOULD be looking at (like the ghost of christmas future), using huge drawing blocks to scribble out predictions...

All of that done without a word being spoken. Why not?

However~ apparently, you're all talking about book tests and the like right? I've never done 1 before, so... :ph43r: I better stay out of that 1.

Yeah. I got your point. And as I said, I think its possible. Afterall, mentalism does include PK acts like forkbending and moving stuff around. But, it would be difficult to create an entire show out of these acts alone.

I saw a neat silent mentalism act the other day on youtube. Can't seem to locate it again.

I can't really remember the whole routine, but it was something like this:

There was this guy who used a series of words on cards to communicate with the audience. He got a volunteer to pick a card, remember what card it is, and to keep it in his pocket. Then flippling through each card, he slowly guessed the colour, big or small card, the suit and then the exact card - the king of spade. After that, he flashed a card that asked the audience if they wanted to know why he hasn't talk all this while. After the audience responsed positively, the magician then open his mouth and pulled out a folded card. When he opened it, it read "King of Spades'.

If someone knows the link to that video, can you pls forward it to me? It's a pretty simple straight-forward trick, but I would like to observe how he presents it and also learn some of the comedy that was presented in the magician's show. Any idea who came out with that effect or what the magician's name is?

It's called "Silent Treatment" by Jon Allen.

http://www.thesilenttreatment.co.uk/ (Video is on the site too)

Is it worth the price? Would you recommend getting this trick?

It has a very casual feel to the Silent Treatment. Casul, Very nice, Very visual. I would personally feel it's worth it.