Jan Sankey, in one of his DVD recommends teaching really simple basic magic tricks to non-magicians as that promotes magic.

Does anyone agree with him?

well, i don't think it's really right to do so.

You can refer them to materials like in the library, and it's up to them if they want to do so. If they do, it shows their enthusiasm, rather than just spoon-feeding them with the methods. And i think one should only recommend a trusted person to whatever material. You should not recommend to anybody and everybody who asks where to learn such cool( :lol: )stuff from. It's akin to exposing magic. I think say, 2/3/4 out of 10 people will still like magic after a while, and the rest will probably just quit and become hecklers. Now magic has lost a lot of its clouds of mystery that once shrouded it. The mystery vapours have condensed onto almost anything.

Therefore, i never really liked this idea of exposing more and more people to magic. It should be exposing SELECTED people to magic with enough drive, motivation, etc.

Just my 2 Singaporean cents,

Aaron

I somehow agree. But I am not sure how to define "simple and basic"? (that you can find in the Children's magic book?)

In the end, I just acted blur. :P

Hey Joel,

If we're on the same page, I believe the DVD you're referring to is Sankey's "The Real Work on Restaurant and Bar Magic". If so, then I think you might have accidentally left out another point that he covered in that section- that he would do so only for repeat customers who he feels have a real, genuine interest in the art of magic- and that they make a promise to him that they will keep it a secret.

I know what some of you are thinking- "but won't this also promote exposure?" To paraphrase the great Eugene Burger, more people expose magic everyday by simply doing it badly. Don't you remember even ONE time in your magic past that you've stayed up countless nights wondering how that one magician did that one thing with that one thing? And then when you finally pay that $25 (hehehe) to learn how it works, you're just astounded by how you could have been hoodwinked so badly?

I say that if the person seems to fit the criteria, be nice and share that feeling with him- that somehow, there's more than one way to skin a cat. And with that in mind, here's my only restriction on this principle: never teach them anything that you think that you or a fellow magician would ever use professionally.

"I know how you did that... you use two cards!"

:unsure:

-Kev

Yea Kevin,

You got it right there. I was refering to Sankey's statement from memory so it was not too accurate. Thanks for the correction. It's from that DVD.

So would you teach simple tricks to your audience who seem to be genuinely interested? Or will you just refer them to resources? What about referring them to popular magic websites like p**g**n, or E? Will you do that? If it is referring them to webpages, that would expose them to a lot of magic. They may watch the videos, but not learn the trick. The next time you perform one of those tricks that is on video, won't these spectators stay unimpressed saying that they have seen it before.

If they display interest after your performance, you can refer them to the library or to meet some of your other magic friends. If that person doesn't show interest in meeting your friends or at least inquire about the whereabouts of magic books in the library then he's just displaying interest for instant gratification. If he does wish to meet your friends and does inquire about the library, then he's probably genuinely interested and you can refer him to such websites and not worry about him being unimpressed with your magic since he is a magician, not a spectator anymore, and he should have the integrity to keep magic's secrets.

Well, to cite an example of over-exposure, i was just playing around with my cards in school, and this guy comes up to me and say," hey man, why don't you use bicycle brand cards?" i was like "...." By the way, i was using Tally Hos. :D

So, this shows an over-exposure in my school. I saw this dude doing ghost bills without showing the "folding" part. He just did a lousy presentation of pulling the 2 bills apart by himself!! When it's suppose to be pulled off by spectator. <_<

Sadly, this is also happening in many places due to people getting more and more people into this art, without knowing the base of the person's character.

Oh and another reason why we shouldn't teach simple tricks so readily.

Say a beginner performs a trick, say the 21 card trick(which is commonly deemed as one of the most basic trick by many senior magicians).
Magician: "Okay, now i will find your card in a most peculiar way-spelling"
Spec: "lol, i know this nong ago la. You newb ah? No tricks to show?" :ph43r:

Then the beginning magician will start feeling depressed and may even stop magic! This decreases the number of magicians around. And next time the same spectator see him, he will probably say, "hey newb, gg. i pwn you!" Imagine how he must have felt. :unsure:

So you might say, "why don't he start off with a hard hitting one then?"
Well, some of us will show some really simple tricks to get audience involved AND lose the nervousness. Only then can we proceed when our hands stop shaking so much.

So yeah.

Aaron

I am alright with teaching very basic tricks to lay people who have shown particular interest (few). If they are genuinely and seriously interested (even fewer), I will direct them to other materials.

I guess it's really up to your discretion, not too much, but not too little.

That's sooo true. But with a slight addition (ie. think change card back colour) it gives a new twist to the trick that leaves the person much more impressed. (I think if i'm not wrong, i saw Shufi perform this for a MATH lecturer who of course knows the principle) :)

Ok. That's beside the point.

I agree with gordon about teaching lay-people only if they express interest.

I will not teach a person if he sees an effect and say: "Oh hey. That's cool. Teach me. " NO way. <_<
But if the person expresses continuous interest, i may refer him to the library.

If thereafter, he still shows considerable interest by bothering to look for the book and practising etc, i might then direct them to other stuff..

Of course, with internet nowadays, they might not even ask you. They just sit down in front of the comp and find something online... :mellow:

A.

I completely disagree with Jay. I respect his skill but I will never partake in exposure of magic.

If I'm a magician, there shouldn't be any explanation to what I'm doing.

I would like to point out that when spectators gasp and say, " how did you do that? " they are not looking for an explanation. They are merely voicing out their thoughts. That means, that your performance has really affected them.

Oh this reminds me of something, I was taking bus from Bukit panjang to Boon lay, to NTU la.

On the way, I saw a banner of so called " Magic Workshop", din get the details.

So its now, simple magic have been on the ground for every long liao, even the classic cups and balls. So hmm, i feel, we can only answer to ourself, If you think its okie to expose some knowledge jus to let ppl understand your act, then its okie, but otherwise, if u disagree, then dun do it.

Its like, Someone feels that a killer is wrong, but he might think it is right to do it. So its really other issues like ethic and the public.

Hmmm... Just voicing out. I don't really see any reason for teaching laymen how we did what we did. Or directing them to the materials, or whatever.

It kind of defeats the purpose of having the performance in the first place.

I mean, even if we did teach them, what good would that be? If they were really interested, they would know how to find out about magic their own way. Then I'll help them. :g:

Getting them started yourself is just waaaaay too risky, don't you think? The interest may be short-lived. Plus another hundred problems that could arise with that. :wacko:

What about if someone offers you money to teach them a certain trick. Would you? What if they are offering you (for example) $10 to learn a trick that is sold for $30 elsewhere?

basically if it's an effect on the market, i don't think you have the right to teach the effect. You only get the performance right with the DVD that you purchased, but not the teaching right.

back to the topic, sometimes, when my audience asked me about the secret, I'll just give them a test to see whether they are geniuly interested in learning magic. If they can performed a muscle pass within a month, I'll teach them the effect. :P

:off: I dun know the muscle pass, but i sure got the concession pass, and it even have my photo on it!!

So will you teach me an effect?

:off:

Actually, you cannot please the whole world, just please yourself, and be happy of what u are doing.

Even if the effect wasn't copyrighted or sold on the market, I wouldn't sell the $30 effect for $40(or $50, for that matter).

I would sell it for 60. :lol: Kidding, kidding...

Hmm, this might lead to another question: Are we qualified to even teach? -_-

Noone is qualified to teach a marketed effect that is not his/her own.

You can either teach very basic tricks (I would teach the key card principle and tricks that can be done with it) or direct them to resources (eg. RRTCM if they prove genuinely interested).

That's right. No one is qualified to teach a trick that he did not invent. But that is what many magicians are doing. They take an old trick from a book, modify the patter a little, improve the props, make their own DVD and sell it for $50 and in the DVD, they just mention that the trick is a modification of such and such trick with credit going to its original inventer.

:g: Now, what if someone offered you $500 to teach them that cool mind reading trick you did. Can you resist it? ;)

And like Larry said, do I qualify to learn your trick if I have a concession pass? :rolleyes:

When I started out in magic a few years back, I would be happily teaching my friends what I did.

Then I realised it was wrong.

So I stopped.

Nowadays, I (like what some of you say) teach some simple stuff to people only either to the interested OR people whom I trust. I really don't mind people knowing I didn't really take a coin in my hand - maybe I am just lucky that I pick the correct people or have a great group of friends around me, who even though know the secret, still like what I do and find it entertaining instead of the "chey, that's so lame" attitude.

For example:

*I do a false transfer and make the coin come out from my nose*
"WoW!!! hahahahaha that was really damn cool!"
"Thank you." *does a few more times, appearing from different places*
"Wow, you didn't take the coin, but it looks damn good! You are great!"
*claps for me and praises me*

The claps and praises are of course, not sarcastic in any way.

But of course, bottomline: Do what you feel is right. If you overly expose whatever you do, you are killing yourself. Somehow by teaching a simple thingamahig, I build up communication between me and the audience. I do it in more of a non-serious fashion, so that the whole thing doesn't seem to be exposing; instead it is more of a "laugh-off" kind of thing.

I don't "expose" or teach the "pro-er" stuff I do, of course. So don't kill me.

- harapan ong

P.S. I agree with Eugene Burger - there are SO MANY people out there who do magic badly and expose even more than us.

So would you consider DL a pro-technique? It's basic but used in many "advance" tricks.

I do not teach the DL because of it's extensive use in many card effects. Even if someone has read about the DL and approaches me about it, I'll just acknowledge such a sleight, act dismissive about it and may even show a sloppy DL. That way, I can still fool the person with a better-executed DL.

HarapanOng i was the same as you before.... When i first started out magic, when i got nervous or something or after i screwed up a trick, i usually just teach them the rest of the tricks i knew and I'm really regretting now. But lucky for me, i was just starting out.

I realise that to learn magic, a motivation must be somewhere, be it from the tv shows you've seen or the friend that you saw doing magic in a party.
I was really interested in magic, searched for resources about magic or where to learn( It took me ages before i knew about SMC :lol: ).

I realise that there's really no need to spill out all the tricks or basics you've learned just because you screwed up or when you're nervous. If they're interested, it will be natural for them to find out the resources themselves and i don't direct them straight to resources or anything. By doing so, magic comes by too easy for them and they may not respect the code as much as we did.

So usually, if i really screwed up, i would just brush it off and show them one trick i'm confident with and they'll be just shocked :o again.

We've all screwed up at least once when we first started out, that's for sure... Be it performances, or the way we look at magic.

And we're also going out of point here.. :off:

Hmmm, joeltay, if someone offered me $500 for a simple-self-working-mind-reading-trick that I usually won't perform anyway...
Woah, that's tempting. :ph43r: I might. Cozz I need the cash to get Ultrasmoke. :off:

But of course, that would be the wrong thing to do. :g:
(I'm using a concession pass)

When someone pays 500 bucks for a simple mind reading effect, should it still be considered exposure, or teaching? Isn't exposure more of "anyhow" show people, whereas when cash is involved, it isn't exposure?

Anyway, yea, I don't teach DL. Obviously.

- harapanong

if you're a professional, and u don't teach..it'll be more understandable...
but it's a little bit difficult to deal with if u're only a hobbyist/ amateur

I think the cardinal rule of any magician is "no exposure"
followed by "do not repeat the same trick". Most of the
time people wants to know a trick is out of curiosity.
If someone is genuinely interested then I will direct him
to the magic shops on the net or those around town.

Even if that person was genuinely interested, I wouldn't really direct him/her to any place. And... (why are we repeating what we say again and again?)

eryanic, I agree about the amateur thing. People look at you differently, plus your magic would look like something that can come easily from somewhere.
As compared to the pros, where their magic is top-secret and all... So there's no way they can teach.

Actually, the thinking behind this theory might be that the pros would charge more for the "lessons" than the amateur would. HA. Just a thought.

IMHO I think it depends of the character of the person. If he's like, very trustable(is there such a word?) and doesnt heckle your tricks then maybe its ok to teach him a trick of two, but perhaps get him sworn to secrecy?

okie, though this topic's a bit old, i have thought about it and came up with a short test to test the person's interest in the art.

This test is to test his patience and willingness to devote to this time-consuming art in a very simple way--->coin sleights!!

I'm sure many of us can profess that to learn and perfect a coin sleight can take some time. well, i do. Because coins are smaller and knackier. They require more attention. So we do need more time and patience to actually perfect a coin sleight.

Therefore, teach your handpicked friend a coin sleight. A simple one. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. For example, the french drop(may be simple but does need some work, like all sleights do) . It takes a while for a beginner to actually get the perfect drop so it will drop into Finger P*** and the visual retention technique down. So just teach him this(feel free to add 1 or 2 more, just remember to give more time).

Ask him to show it to you after a few days of practice. If he can do it well, applaud him and bring him in. If he seems to be doing it the same way as he first started out, 1) be nice and give him a few more days to really get it down. 2) Be nasty and shun him. But IF he has been really practising it, he should be able to do it better, though not as natural BUT better than the first attempt.

Yep, just my 2 cents worth. ^_^
Aaron

hey guys.

What I have found over a few years is to teach a wee lil bit. Like for example, if do something and people ask you if you could teach them, tell them that it is rather difficult and you suggest they start from the basics. Then teach them a few normal but sleek shuffles and 99% will try, fail and leave you alone. Pretend to teach the remaining 1% a fancy cut and they too will leave you alone so you have in a sense satisfied them but not exposed at all.

CSJ

as for me, i will teach anyone, if this will make them happy. :P

any way i know nothing at all, ha.........ha..... :P

let me recall how many people i had teach for free, may be 3 or 5 or 7 all kids, a magic trick call jumping rubber band, this make them so happy.
so i tell myself, i will use magic as a ice breaker. :D

then i went for mission trips, i show my team an routine by using match sticks, a cloth, rubber band, match box, ruler and paper, thier called this gospel illusion, then i know as Christian still can use magic for Him, so i taught them my routine. this make Him so happy. :rolleyes:

i join FCBC, Project Smile, in the ministry, there met number of my same kind, we learn from PS LK, and visited ang Mo kio hosp share with them how to use magic for Phy Therapy, so we teach them, this make them so happy. :rolleyes:

o where am i, yes, my answer to this i will teach but when is only needed to. this hope make you happy too. B)

I usually end up just teaching one simple key card trick just to promote a bit of fun/interest and mainly so that they'll get off my back with all the hard stuff !!


i think it's important to uphold the magician's code. All these guys on youtube that are revealing how to do tricks is getting me worried.

My usual reply for "How did you do that!? Can you teach me?":

"I learn from books, you can find them in Kinokuniya, Borders or some other book stores like Popular, if you're interested; get a book, call me if you don't understand, I'll guide you from the book. Here's my card..."

(Never have any one calling me for teaching, cos they never get any book...)

-Alan-

i hate to say this but, look who's talking aaron, the guy who TAUGHT ring thing to a bloody layman. nevermind, i wanted to slap him that day, now whenever i dont have anything to perform magic, and someone asks me to perform, i will take out my key ring, and start to do, and then he will say 'aiya my frend show me , i know how to do'. i just hated it. I never ever teach magic to a layman, maybe except paperball, well it is supposed to be revealed

Huh? So you're saying that aaron taught your friend who is a "bloody layman", Ring Thing? Hahaha..

Come on, its just a trick, there're so many tricks out there, surely you have something else to show yea? <_< No need get so agitated until want to slap your fellow magician friend lah.. :P

If not, you're gonna have lots of people to slap on Youtube.. :ph43r:

The prevalence or seeming insignificance of exposure does not make it any less reprehensible.

Any opposition, though apparently futile, to such indiscriminate exposure of professional magical secrets is absolutely justified.

well i scolded aaron for it, but still its kinna bad, there is just too much exposure to magic in my sch, there are many wanna-be's who buy tricks but just ruin it, there was this guy, called nicholas i think, not sure, he wwas very interested to learn, and he was willing to buy, but that one day i asked hime to come over to a maigc shop introduce hime to magic. Guess what he brought abt 8-10 boys layman. the Owner performed to them and they were all hecklers. The truth is that there is very little true magic in my sch

Yup, there are actually people out there who thinks that exposing a "small" trick is not really exposing.

Why, I just saw somebody exposing Hummer Card that day. When I told him off, he replied: "It's only a simple trick. Anyway, most people would have known it used an t***ad." Can you imagine that? Then in the first place why did he bought the trick for if "most people" can figure it out (obviously he was not part of "most people").

He thought that by teaching it for free, he was gaining popularity and attention but he was only taken for a fool by those guys who want free tricks.