Do you all think it's REALLY necessary to re-produce an object you vanish? Eg: Coin

Or you would just let like disappear into the thin air and straight m to another trick? A la Revolution.

And why?

My feel is that if you are doing a rountine, it is best if you could produce something, then vanish it (or the other way round). It doesn't have to be immediate - ie, you can vanish a coin at the start, then go onto something else, before ending with a production again.

It gives the audience a sense of completion. Because i think audience tend to think: if you could vanish a coin, you should be able to produce a coin isn't it?

If it is a stand-alone effect then whether to reproduce whatever after vanishing it is entirely up to you i guess.

A. ^_^

This is a good topic I must say. To me, whether a prestige is really necessary depends on how the effect is presented, from start till finish and every detail is addressed. We'll take vanishing a coin for example, ala any method.

When a turn is presented (coin vanishes) right before one's eyes, be it a magician or lay person, the first thought that would always suffice would be where did the coin go? When such a question is evoked off from our minds, it produces a natural tendency to fathom upon what had just happened. Following that question, its again natural to come up with a logical explanation of what had just happened. Every individual will run through all possibilities in their head to come up with an explantion themselves. Hence, due to the fact that the presentation of such a phenomenea evokes questions in our minds, the Prestige has to come in to fill that mental gap in us. Once this gap is filled, previously associated questions would be eliminated in many ways.

Ok, lets break this down. A coin is shown, placed on spectaor's open palm. The magician waves his hands over once, twice and in the third wave, the coin vanished from the spectator's palm. Sounds like a cool magical effect but the important piece of information here is what this effect have on the spectaor? When you show a coin, there is no magic at all because its just a coin. When you eventually show that the coin has vanised, does this constutite to magic? I have to say NO. This is because it merely shows that what was there a moment a go is now gone. Where is then the magic? The magic is not in the hands or the coin, its in the Head or Minds of the spectator. Its how they interpret the effect that makes the magic happen and how they interpret really depends how the magician presents the ACT, the Turn and the Prestige.

In the ACT, we show an ordinary coin, we cannot just merely show a coin, the essence here is that the spectator must be firmly convinced that the coin shown to them is indeed ordinary. That is where you allow the coin for examination or simply the coin is borrowed. This ACT of showing a coin will be truly ordinary as the spectator eliminated in their minds that the coin might be gimmicked.

Next the Turn, we disappear the coin in any possible manner. Magic happens? No, because how the Turn is executed is another thought provoking issue. If the coin is disappeared in the magician's palm, it's weaker then disappearing it in the spectator's palm. If you happen to wear long sleeves, regardless or not sleeves are used is another thought provoking issue. Therefore in the Turn, we too have to remove any doubts that might suffice.

Lastly, the Prestige, the coin is reproduced. Whether the coin truly needs to be reproduced depends on the 2 predecessor of the ACT and TURN because if the 1st 2 are well interpreted and understood, the act of bringing back the coin might not be necessary, if truly vanishing a material object is the intention. If the the ACT and TURN exist doubts or loopholes, then the Prestige fills that gap. the coin can say appear in spectator's pocket. This unexpected transposition will be diffcult to comprehend as spectators are now more focused on the ending than the process. If vanishing a material object is not the intention of the performer, then when the ACT and TURN is presented flawlessly, the PRESTIGE would add as a Double Climaxer. Coin vanish in the fairest possible manner, 1st climax, the coin appear in spectator's pocket without the magician touching the spec, 2nd climaxer.

All in all, its important to note that as long as the situation at the beginning is crystal clear and absolutely nothing has happened afterwards to distraught that then spectators would be at a loss of explanations. It's therefore our primary tasks as a performer to emphasise the situation in the beginning, assuring that it is clearly communicated so that it will be clearly remembered in the end. Only then all logical explanations are answered and the magical atmosphere is enhanced.

Opps, I realised I wrote a bit too much. :P Well this is what I think and I hope my 2 cents worth of opinion is something we can think about. ^_^

Yo bro, can you try to use more human language next time? hehe..

I think that a vanish should ALWAYS be followed with a production of the same item. A vanish will not satisfy the audience, and they will keep thinking and asking themselves where the item could have gone. This creates unnecessary anxiety in them, not exactly the kind of "suspense" we are looking for.

Suspense can be created by increasing the time between the vanish and the production, but beware, too long a time interval will prove detrimental effect-wise.

In my humble opinion I think a vanish should not be followed by a reproduction. If you were doing a coins across it would make sense to have a coin disappear in your left hand and appear in your right. However, I think that if a coin vanish is used as an effect by itself, it should NOT be reproduced.

That is why, when you make a coin appear in a Misers Dream routine, you don't make the coins vanish at the end. The miser would not have dreamt of coins appearing only to disappear seconds later.

The vanish and reproduction of a coin is very situational.

When you vanish a coin, you have the power to destroy money forever.

When you produce a coin, you have the power to make money.

When you vanish a coin and then produce it, you have the power to make money invisible.

Well said man.. ;)

well i think that it is easier to vanish a coin then to produce a coin with apparently empty hands.

Say for example, you vanish a coin using the raven method or the revolution, how are you gonna reproduce it?!?

For me, i always try to show 'empty' hands (ACT), product 1 or 2 coins(TURN), then vanish them (PRESTIGE).
In this way you end clean, and the spec will not be expecting you to reproduce the coin yet again.
Like what Jerome said, if your routine makes sense to the spec, it doesn't matter how you end it as long as the spec is satisfied with what happened and it makes sense to them.

Like for another example, if you make a coin penatrate a beer bottle (appear inside), it would not make sense if you could put it inside and not bring it out again right? UNLESS, you intend to hand the bottle with the coin inside to your spec as a souvenier. In that case, you have not performed the prestige in some sense, but yet the audience is satisfied.

ZiAn

Just a side note:

I believe there seems to be a misinterpretation of the terms 'act', 'turn' and 'prestige'. These terms are doubtlessly popularised by the movie, The Prestige, and have found themselves on the tip of every magician's tongue.

The proper terms would be the Pledge, the Turn and the Prestige. For the information of those who only watched the movie but did not read the book, these terms were created by the author of the book to make sense of a STAGE trick.

In no way was this author a magician. Therefore it would be misleading to structure magical effects according to this 'theory'. Many other magical theories can be found in established texts and videos produced by actual magicians.

Though some may argue that this is merely a case of semantics, terminology and its technical applications form the basis of discussions, and therefore, must not be treated lightly.



The plot and structure of a close-up magic effect is more complex than just 'show your hands empty', 'produce money', 'make it disappear'. Has anyone thought of 'why'? Why produce money, or make it vanish?

I like these..... :)

Sincerely, I do not understand why do we need to ask WHY? Magicians do not need to explain why money is used instead of cards or vice versa. Neither do Magician needs to explain why he needs to vanish or reproduce something before or after he performs.

It is Magic and no explanation needed! My opinion is that it all depends how well your presentation is and what magical power you want to show that you are poscessing - like the quotes above.

If spectators are amazed by your magic... they will not ask WHY YOU DO THAT MAGIC? but rather HOW YOU DO THAT MAGIC?

:)

Why not?

You vanish something, you get great reactions, the audience is happy and you are happy. Simple.

So why not?

If someone really ask why you do that magic, it probably time to quit.

LoL.

lol..... Joel, thats what I think too :)

Obviously, many magicians do not think of why they do certain effects. There is certainly nothing wrong with it, IF magicians do not intend to create strong magic.

Just like all theatrical presentations, it is always important to establish the Who, What, When, Why and How.

I did not say that the audience should ask 'why'. I'm saying that magicians (who really care about their magic) should ask 'why'.


"If spectators are amazed by your magic... they will not ask WHY YOU DO THAT MAGIC? but rather HOW YOU DO THAT MAGIC?"

No spectator will verbally ask you why you do a certain magic trick. But I can assure you that on a subconcious level, most audiences' responses to your tricks will be "so what?"

Imagine a magician finding a card that was lost in the deck. The magician finds it in an impossible location. So what if he can do that?

Imagine a magician vanishing three coins, one at a time. So what if he can do that?

Imagine a magician sawing a woman in half, then putting it back together again. So what if he can do that?

If you really think hard about your magic, you'll realise that the 'why' of magic is as important as 'what', 'where', 'when' and 'how'.


"You vanish something, you get great reactions, the audience is happy and you are happy. Simple."

Of course, magicians can always take this simplistic approach to magic. If that's the case, I'm sure these 'magicians' will be delighted with every new magic release that promises 'high impact!', 'easy to do!', 'great reactions!'. But if we're talking about theory and philosophy, perhaps we can put more thought into the issue.

Seriously if everyone follows the 'act', 'turn' and 'prestige', then there will not be a prestige anymore, because, every heckler will say, "you see ar, later he surely will appear the coin" then it will be so expected.

To me this thoery is meant for stage illusion, it is because everyone know what will happen by the look of the props, but later at the end you bring up something that is beyond expected, and thats the point about
"prestige".

In a close-up magic, we do not explain what will happen before we perform, thats why every move is a prestige itself, a coin is normal, they check, suddenly you vanish, thats good enough to blow their mind, you dont go about saying, "You see ar, the coin is going to vanish in the next few sec" or "you gonna feel a zap when you touch my finger"

Sooooooooo, if you really really die die want to produce back the coin,
then, if you are able to vanish a sign coin and appear it in the shoes of your audience, thats a prestige, if not, just showing your hand is empty and produce it, they will just say, "hey, where did you hide the coin?"

Actually, I don't think (even on a subconscious level), laymen actually think "WHY" a magician does something. They are only thinking of the "HOW". I know, because not too long ago I was a layman too. I've never questioned why magicians used cards and can't use other things to read my mind.

I mean, look, performing magic can really be a very simple joy. You perform, they like it, applause, and everybody is happy!! Why dwell so much into those "chimonology" philosophical stuff?

Simplicity is beauty.

Now i think i can understand what kryptikalism is trying to say.

That's true. A magic with a purpose is much more powerful.

I used to perform one trick (forgot what’s the name liao) where 2 spectators signed 2 different cards and at the end of the routine the 2 cards fused together as one.

I usually perform this trick to a couple and it will get great reactions.

Why perform it? It shows that the couple really love each other so much that they can never be separated.

If I just fused the 2 cards together without saying anything about the couple, they might ask "Why? So what if he can do that?
But if i had the story of 2 couples being together forever behind that card trick, they would not ask that question. Meaning there is a reason for me to perform that trick, there is a reason why those 2 cards became one.

"It’s because of love the 2 cards fused. Love and magic are the same. Both are amazing and cannot be explained" That's my ending patter.

However it's not easy to always consider the 'what', 'where', 'when' and 'how' for every single trick.

For example the coin vainish, why do the coin vanish?

" Money is just a concept, and like all concepts it only exists in our minds. In other words, it don't really exist..." *place coin on spectators hand*

"And if it don't exist in the real world, then what is this feeling of cold steel on your skin? * starts waving your hands on top of his*

" Its just an illusion...." *the coin vanished*

That's what i can think of. Why vanish the coin? Because you want to show them that money is nothing more than a concept, which only exists in our mind. (inspired from Andrew Mayne's Ghost bill patter :P )

Well, I'm not very delighted with recent new magic that promises "high impact", "great reactions" blah blah blah. Guess that means I'm not one of those 'magicians'

My previous post is to get across the message that sometimes you don't have to think so much about something. I'm just afraid that some people will think too much about "Why am I doing magic" and end up not doing magic at all, because they could not find the answer to their questions.

So why NOT do magic? Just don't think about it that much, just go out there and do it. I think this is more for new magicians. Learn how to walk first before you start running. Learn how to approach people and get real experience of performing to people before thinking about more complicated stuff like theory and philosophy behind every trick.

Do you really get a lot of 'so what' responses from your audiences even when you saw a woman in half, then putting it back together again?

If so, you really have to think hard WHO you are performing to..... and ask yourself WHERE you are performing (what occassion is it?)....

If you are performing at the RIGHT place and to the RIGHT audiences, and you still get the SO WHAT and WHY questions.... I have no doubt that you really have to think

WHY audience ask WHY to your magic?
WHY audience is not amaze by your magic, instead of asking HOW you do that, they ask So What if you can do that?

This is really unusual..... :(

Well if there are any magicians out there majoring in psychology, maybe they can come up with a research programme studying the subconcious mind of magic audiences. And we can find out if they are really thinking of "so what?" on a subconcious level.

The more you think about improving your magic, the better it will be. There's nothing wrong with:

I mean, look, performing magic can really be a very simple joy. You perform, they like it, applause, and everybody is happy!! Why dwell so much into those "chimonology" philosophical stuff?

However, many people confuse 'simple' with 'easy'. If you want to bring your magic up to another level, you have to know the difference.

Why dwell so much into "chiminology"? Isn't this the Magical Theory and Philosophy section?

ThomasLim,

Perhaps you are still unsure about what I'm trying to say. All audiences will ask how you accomplish your magic, but that process occurs only on an intellectual level.

Magic, however, affects the spectator on an emotional level. Most magicians perform effects that don't make much sense. Think about questions that laymen might have posed to you. Maybe these will seem familiar:

"Can you make my wife/boss/mother-in-law disappear?"

"What am I thinking of right now?"

"Can you change my $2 into $50?

Why do they ask these questions? Are they mocking you? These responses actually indicate what laymen would do if they had your magical power. Audiences want to see you doing something useful with your magic.

Therefore, it is impressive if you can saw a woman in half and put her back together. Without a good presentation, sawing a woman in half and putting her back is is impressive, but meaningless.

Do we want to have another generation of magicians that excel produce playing cards out of thin air and link solid steel rings, but do not know what a magic effect is?

If i don't remember wrongly, one lady posted David Blaine this question. Guess his magic did not make much sense too :P

I was requested to change a $2 to a $50 once, and lucky enough i was able to do that impromptu.

This thread is really thought provoking... after the exams i'm going to try find meaning for all the magic i had learnt.

There are all kinds of audiences around and some would have riddiculous requests from you. Do you really have to take it seriously on their such request? :unsure: Are you thinking too much.... and will you really blame yourself for not able to disappear his wife? :wacko:

There are just some audiences out there who like to tease at the magician as they know that you are performing Magic.... you are a magician, and NOT someone that really have the supernatural power. Do you think Cyril or David Blaine never encounter such requests from those weird audience?

Thus dont take it too hard and start asking WHY immediately when somebody has a riddiculous request. We will make ourselves suffer by thinking too much. We will never please this type of audience no matter what we do. However, if 50% of your audience did have such request, it is time to seriously think What goes wrong in your presentation.

I agree.... I have already mention mine earlier on

So.... presentation is important. :D

I just started magic not long ago and I do not understand which point you are coming at, and you did not explain well.... :( What is your definition for Magic effect? What makes you think that your magic effect make sense and others dont? Care to explain? Are you refering to presentation? :unsure: Thanks.

To kryptikalism:

1. Ok, yes. I agree that this is the philosophy section. So my philosophy on this is to keep things simple. "Chimonology" will be complicating a otherwise simple subject. Eg: Humans breathe but we don't keep asking the question "why do we breathe?", there's no profit in getting the answer and you might just choke while pondering over this. Humans simply breathe and I am happy enough with that!!

2. I agree with Thomas that you don't have to really care about those ridiculous request. They are usually made in jest. I mean, seriously, I don't think anybody REALLY think we have supernatural powers (ok, there are always exception but they are usually the minority).

3. Yes, I always think presentation is important. Don't see how anybody can dispute that.

4. "Do we want to have another generation of magicians that excel produce playing cards out of thin air and link solid steel rings, but do not know what a magic effect is?"
Eh... so what do you mean by not knowing what's a magic effect?

5. "However, many people confuse 'simple' with 'easy'. If you want to bring your magic up to another level, you have to know the difference."
So what's a example of confusing simple and easy?
:D

Perhaps you should read some Darwin Ortiz for some answers.


There are reasons why a spectator would ask these questions. And if you know the reason, and how it works, you can actually tremendously improve your magic.

hey guys let me add something to this discussion.

Occasionally people do ask things like ' can you make my wife disappear ' and blah blah blah....

If you think about it, NO ONE would ask Derren Brown that question. Neither would they ask him to change a $2 bill to a $50. If you really have complete control over your audience, they won't ask you this.

I think, when it comes to magic, your character plays a huge part in prompting responses from your audience. In Strong Magic, Darwin Ortiz has solid reasons on why these questions are asked, however, he doesn't give a solution. He suggests that you should make your magic more meaningful but that will not stop an outspoken man from saying the irritating line ' can you make my wife disappear '. Outspoken people usually say it the second you introduce yourself as a magician.

By the way, when someone asks me that question, with a stern look I answer " honestly, you wouldn't want that to happen, would you? ". It works for my character.

But thats just me.

And thats just my 2 cents.

Oh and let me add something else. Its 1:47am in the morning but I really feel like yapping.

Cyril Takayama pulled a burger out of a poster. Houdini escaped from locks which his staff locked him in.

If we think about the theoretical side of magic and if we analyse their performances, we realize that Cyril has the ability to 'obtain anything he wants' whereas Houdini 'can escape from anything' ( the Houdini part is a quote from Strong Magic ).

So obviously Cyril is more impressive, right?

But but but but but... almost everyone in the world has heard of the LEGENDARY magician and escape artist, Houdini. Whereas if you ask your friends if they've heard of Cyril Takayama, your friends would say " teriyaki who? "

Even though Cyril had the advantage of quick media attention, he pales in comparison to Houdini.

So, here's my answer to the post I saw earlier on.

Why would I make money vanish? Because its entertaining.

Why would I make money appear? Because its entertaining.

Why would I saw a woman in half? Because its entertaining.

And with reference to my previous post..

Why would someone say ' can you make my wife disappear? ' Because its entertaining.

Why would someone say ' can you change my $2 to a $50? ' Because its entertaining. They don't really expect you to have the ability to do that so they say this line and it entertains their group and it gives the fella a bit of attention.

If you have your TT ready for this ( I do, and I suggest you prepare for this as well ) you'd really blow their pants off.

Therefore, I'll end off my post with this saying.

TOO MUCH THEORY TURNS US INTO OLD MEN. SERIOUSLY.

I'd rather perform and learn from my mistakes.

Ok, sleep time.

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B)

Have you ever watched magicians on TV plucking out coins as a kid? When he plucked out a coin in the air, I assumed that all magcians are damn rich. And I asked my dad, 'if they were so rich, why didnt they save the world?'

Do you realise how powerful this can be? Despite on the surface, yes it is entertaining. But is it more meaningful if David Blaine turned a cup of coffee to coins for Donald Trump or if he did it for a beggar?

But of cos, this depends on whta you want your magic to be. If you define magic as only pure entertainment when audiences are in awe in that moment and forget about what happened the next, flashy magic is good. But for me, I'd rather my spectator remember what I did through emotional meaning.

Ah Alexander, please do refer to my first post.

The one on the first page. It gives the reasons for why I'd make a coin vanish or appear and it also says why I won't make a coin vanish and then appear.

And also, all my answers to those questions should be changed to ' because its magical '.

Is it really necessary that magic must be emotional?

I always remember David Copperfield walking through the Great Wall but it wasn't really emotional for me, it is (just?) magical.

I mean, I don't disagree that we can make magic to have a greater emotional impact on people, but is it ALWAYS necessary? If I am somebody who always perform at social parties or night spots, probably I don't want to get too emotional in my effects.

I want to join in the fun!

Magic has evolved into a performance art.

Let people enjoy magic because it is magical, and not always because it is somehow linked to their innersoul and mind where you let a coin symbollize their great-grandma who died 15 years ago and symbollically make it vanish.

Nothing wrong with emotional magic or magic that has a purpose (Love and magic are the same etc and making wives disappear...) but you can always state "I am an entertainer at heart, I perform magic for your pleasure purposes, not to make your wife disappear."

Ocassionally, I do get challenges like "hey, Harapan, since our classroom is now locked and we don't have the key, use your magic to open the door." I just laugh and smile. Honestly.

Even though magicians are now entertaining performers, people still have a certain subconcious thought that they have some kind of powers. As a magician, you are EXPECTED to be able to do anything. Open doors, make wives disappear, make money appear magically... etc.

If you can do purposeful magic EVERY SINGLE TIME, then cool! People will worship you, probably.

But if you can't, be content with being a performer.

So, 2 points:

1. Purposeful magic ROCKS. But if you can't, don't make yourself seem to be able to do it.

2. TOO MUCH THEORY TURNS US INTO OLD MEN.

- harapan ong

Too much theory turns us into old men?

That sounds... interesting. Absolutely and positively flawed, but interesting nonetheless. I'd rather be an old man than commit to a superficial statement like that. :P

While it is true that the average amateur magician can get away with doing easy and apparently 'strong' magic, the purpose of this discussion was to point out that:

Motivation and meaning will make magic stronger.


If you think about it, NO ONE would ask Derren Brown that question. Neither would they ask him to change a $2 bill to a $50. If you really have complete control over your audience, they won't ask you this.

This is true simply because Derren Brown does not project the image of a manipulator of an object's magical properties. Would you ask a plumber to fix your computer? Similarly, why would you ask a mindreader to make something disappear? That request would not be consistent with the performer's image.

On the other hand, I am very sure that people would come up to Derren Brown and ask him, "What number am I thinking of right NOW?"



I always remember David Copperfield walking through the Great Wall but it wasn't really emotional for me, it is (just?) magical.

Magic happens to the spectator on an emotional level. On an intellectual level, no one really believes that magic exists. If you thought that Copperfield walking through the Wall was magical, then you were indeed appreciating it on an emotional level.


It appears that every magician seems to say that 'presentation is important'. The questions to ask are, "WHY is presentation important? HOW do I make my presentation stronger?" If you're not willing to THINK about your magic, how can you even say that presentation is important?


I'd rather perform and learn from my mistakes.

I'd rather think about my magic, perform my magic with sound thinking behind each trick, and most of all, DON'T make any mistakes.

Even better, I want to learn from YOUR mistakes.

Ok, yes. I agree that this is the philosophy section. So my philosophy on this is to keep things simple. "Chimonology" will be complicating a otherwise simple subject. Eg: Humans breathe but we don't keep asking the question "why do we breathe?", there's no profit in getting the answer and you might just choke while pondering over this. Humans simply breathe and I am happy enough with that!!

Humans breathe to live. Essentially you're asking 'Why do humans live'?

My friend, YOU might be 'happy' by not asking that question, but:

There are scientists who ask this question, applying laws of science to find the answer.

There are philosophers who ask this question, applying countless theories of the existence of humanity to find the answer.

There are religious leaders who ask this question, applying theological knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation to find the answer.

Do not claim that there is no profit from finding the answer to 'why do we breathe'. Simply because...

You never asked it for yourself.

Motivation and meaning will make magic stronger.

That's very, very, true.

But I do not believe in forcing it. If you cannot make that certain effect have a meaning or motivation, don't force it. Like I said, audiences should enjoy magic because it is entertainment and magical, but of course, with the little bit of meaning and motivation, it would greatly enhance the effect into a miracle.

(Frankly, I think the "money-is-a-concept-and-it-does-not-exist-and-the-cold-steel-on-your-hand" idea for a coin vanish is a tad too... lame.)

About the Derren Brown thingy:

If you call yourself a magician, like I said, people are expecting that the magic powers are within YOU, and not your props. Therefore, you should be able to do ANYTHING they say, be it read minds, make wives disappear, make money multiply etc

Some magicians will go to the other side and say "Oh, I am a card magician, I only deal with cards" or "Oh, I am a mentalist, mystifier of the human mind". Then of course, by giving yourself a special area you work on, audiences will not give you absurd requests, such as asking Derren Brown to change $2 to $50.

About asking philosophical questions such as "why do we breathe", my argument's still halfway through. Gimme time.

- harapan ong

Yes, no doubt, I will agree with this. However, I am wondering how far we will want to ask WHY to an answer of a question? To me, I will stop asking further when it deviates too much from my original question or when I am Happy with the answer to my quesion.

Q: Why do we breathe?
A: Because we need to take in oxygen from the air, to live.

possible questionS from this simple straightforward answer
Q: Why do we live?
Q: Why do we need oxygen to live?
Q: Why do we breathe through nose and not mouth?
Q: Why must we breathe in air? Can't we breathe in water?
Q: What is the % of oxygen in the air?
Q: What if there is no oxygen in the air when we breathe in the air? Will we still live?
Q: Why did granny die? Is it because there is no oxygen for her in the air to breathe?

There are many more questions still...... It could be seen that numbers of questions could be asked from a simple answer to a simple question. But how deep you would want this to go on? Is it really profitable to Everyone who ask the same question? It depends....

I understand the important of complete control over the audience. This is very important and I relate this to how your presentation is done. A good presentation does not simply mean that you go on stage and perform many "good effect" tricks. You have to interact with your audience and make them understand and enjoy your performance. Once your audience enjoy your performance, they are less likely to make thing difficult for you and this reduces the chance in asking you question like "so what you can do this.... or can you disappear my wife...."

However, once in a blue moon, you could still expect 1 or 2 audience trying to be funny and ask you this question. Just dont take it too hard when you know that their questions are non-constructive to your magic presentation.

I believe Derren Brown definitely met some of these audience too.... asking him to disappear something instead of asking him to read their mind. Why? Because he is a magician.... and layman don't really classify magician :) and layman will ask questions that you aren't expecting :)

Just would like to clarify a bit - it is definitely CORRECT to THINK of how to make presentation stronger and this is not to be argued . I just DO NOT agree to THINK TOO MUCH into WHY MAGIC. I believe there is a difference in these 2. :)

Lastly, by thinking magic won't reduce your chance of of making mistakes. You defnitely need a lot of practise..... just thinking alone don't work. :)

So.... I agree that

:)

Cheers!

Oh man, I always love a good discussion.

1. "Humans breathe to live. Essentially you're asking 'Why do humans live'?"

No I don't really concur. Asking "why I breathe?" is very different from "why I live?"

"Why I breathe?" is like a end-user asking HOW a computer works, internally. Yes, for knowledge and curiousity sake, he could go find out and be happy with the knowledge. But if he never find out, he is still very happy using the computer to play his games and writing in forums.

"Why I live?" is asking how come a computer exist.

2. "Do not claim that there is no profit from finding the answer to 'why do we breathe'. Simply because... You never asked it for yourself."

And yes, FYI, I have asked the the "Why I live?" question (since young) and I am glad I have found the answer. But I never dwell too much on the "why I breathe?".

Why do I say that there is no profit to it? Because, unless you really NEED to know it (eg job requirements), there is really NO NEED for you to know. It's all about practical applications.

As Bruce Lee said, :" You only need to know the things you need to know. Anything else just encumber the brain."

3. Ok, I agree that Magic do touch us on an emotional level. But like Haranpan said, I don't need it to get TOO emotional.

3. Again, FYI, I have always ask myself HOW to improve. But maybe not to the kind of depth you are at.

"it is definitely CORRECT to THINK of how to make presentation stronger and this is not to be argued . I just DO NOT agree to THINK TOO MUCH into WHY MAGIC. I believe there is a difference in these 2."

Yes, I agree with Thomas on this.
:D

Oh yeah, one point I want to say out:

The question "Why magic?" can only be answered by yourself.

It's you yourself who gives meaning, motivation and a reason to your magic.

And of course, be it entertainment, solving problems, touching people deep down in their soul and heart, whatever, there isn't exactly any motivation that cannot develop into something powerful, something beautiful.

Of course, we should disapprove of motivations such as "impress girls" or "to suck up to others so you get better job opportunities".

For me, I choose entertainment.

- harapan. magic!

Ok let me explain what ' TOO MUCH THEORY TURNS US INTO OLD MEN ' means. I meant that too much theory makes us talk to much and not do enough. Get what I mean? Too much theory, not enough practical.


Now, firstly, plenty of magic effects have reasons behind it. Is it pointless to make a coin vanish?

Magic skeptics ( who are magicians ) would say that if he wanted to make the coin vanish, why did he take it out in the first place?

Now if you think about it, its just like watching a tight-rope entertainer. His job is to go from one point to another point via a tight rope. It wouldn't make sense to say ' why didn't he just take a ladder and climb up to the end point instead of risking his life walking on a tight rope? '

In my humble opinion, magic is magic. If magic has a reason, good. If not, it is still extremely beautiful.

Kryptikalism, I have no doubt in my mind that you are a very experienced magician. I honestly think that it is fair for us to have different views on magic. Neither of us are right or wrong. Anyway, how do you stop people from saying, ' can you make my wife disappear? ', keeping in mind that this question is brought up before the magic act, not after.

Also, is there emotional meaning if a magician makes a coin vanish?

I do deeply affect people when I make a coin vanish completely.

Magic without substantial meaning, on the emotional level, might seem like a challenge, like a puzzle, since it only challenges the intellect.

Magic does not have to have a meaning, but seriously, when you perform magic meaninglessly, it just seems like tricks and stunts, albeit amazing.

And there is a difference between apparent meaning and meaning on a subconscious level. I mean, for a magician to produce a coin, might mean, he can hide coin very well, or hes very rich. See the difference here?
And not every magic effect has to have a subtext, for those without, like.. NFW, its not at all boring, nor meaningless. But at the end of the day, when the spectator thinks about it, he'd think, 'hes very good with cards'

BUt i guess, it really boils down to how the individual wants his magic to be like.

Please do not assume that I am making personal attacks on anyone in this thread. In no way am I saying that I am right and that everyone else is wrong. The fact is, it's good to engage in a meaningful intellectual discussion.

If a magician thinks that thinking deeply about a magic effect or philosophy will only detract from his magic, then so be it. To each his own.

Discussion helps us become more aware about what we do with our magic.