On Sunday, I was taking the MRT from City Hall to Toa Payoh. Sitting in front of me were a group of youg boys playing with Black Tigers. Of course, their cards caught my attention.

Nothing wrong with playing cards on MRT except they were:

-practising their Elmsleys and Fal** cuts blatantly in a crowded MRT (many were lookng at them)..... and they weren't very good at it.
-telling and showing each other how they did a particular trick... again openly in the MRT, and yes they weren't good at the tricks either.

They seemed to be very proud of the fact that people are looking at them doing (or rather exposing) magic in public. Well, I was really mistaken... I thought magicians took pride in guarding their secrets and entertaining audiences. Obviously, this group of boys had different ideas.

I hope that these boys are not from SMC. If you are, then please do us all a favour by not doing what you did again!! If these boys re your friends, please pass the message to them!!

Even as a beginner, I know there are things I could do and things I shouldn't do. Blatantly practicing and exposing in the public belong to the latter category. I'm sure that's common sense even if nobody tells them. It seems like they are learning magic and showing off just to have a "I know these moves and you don't, so I'm superior. Nga nga nga!" sense of feeling.

Magicians are show offs!

Magicians are show offs![QUOTE]

Correction ...SOME magician are show off.

Showing off is actually a good trait in magicians. I mean, you must have this urge to perform, no point being a closet magician.

BUT... showing off must be in the right context. YOu show off your magic, your showmanship, but not showing off the secrets. As Christian Bale said in The Prestige, "Without the secret, you are nothing!" Nobody appreciates the multiple f**se cuts you can do, nobody cares about how invisible your passes is, nobody bothers about the hours you put into your practice. Once people knows the secret, you are NOTHING! Your magic don't mean anything.

Just like those guys on the net who expose magic on the pretext of teaching people. They think by "teaching" those tricks (which I suspect they can't even perform properly if their life depend on it), they gain admiration, they gain fame but people only take them as suckers to learn free tricks from.

lol :lol:

I performed on the MRT too when i was really bored. I just take out my cards and do some flourish with them. * show off* :P People will start staring. When you get their attention do some colour changes. You don't need to say a word and you can still amaze people. =) In general, the reactions from the kids are much better compared to the adults lol
I really love the smiles on their adorable faces =)

Ok back to the topic

Exposing magic is a NO NO. Exposing it on MRT is a triple NO. -_- Unless you are alone in the train then you can do whatever you want -_-

Hey btw mucleaxl did you do anything to stop them? Like do some hot shot cuts with the cards landing on their face? For me i would do some flourish to get their attention, then use my eyes to tell them " STOP what you all are doing right now"

If i'm in a bad mood I might use some sign language.

While I admire these people for their enthusiasm, such a phenomenon seems to be a result of magic spreading too much to people who may not be ready to accept magic for what it really is.

I just hope that no one on the train took them seriously.

Chill it.

Is there really a need to blow up a fiasco about this?

Stay cool.

Usually if I see a bunch of "magicians" on a train "showing off", I'll approach them and ask them to perform something for me. (Of course I do not tell them I'm a magician.) Then talk to them. Start a conversation and ask them to show you more effects. Act interested.

This usually stops them from discussing technique to now, talking to a "curious" passer-by.

Wouldn't that be all better?

Mr muscleaxl

You actually quote from The Prestige to guide you in magic? Is Hollywood becoming the new source of magic theory?

Without secrets, we are nothing? NOTHING?!

Man, I don't know how to say it, but I disagree with it.

Anyone up to debunk him?

I just want to say that without secrets, we are still entertainers. Come on, magic is not 100% secrets. Without secrets, we still have something left in us that has been brought about because of magic.

Confidence. Presentation. Skill. Knowledge. Etc.

Currently, my half-dead brain is unable to come up with a better way to disagree with you regarding this. Give me some time, I'll come back to it.

- harapan. magic!

Well, sometimes Hollywood does come up with good lines and I see no problem in quoting from it if they make sense, especially in this context.

I really can't see how you can disagree with me on the secret part. Secret is not EVERYTHING in magic (this I agree), but seriously (logically, sensibly speaking) without the secret, what magic is left? You mean your audience will still be amazed by an ACR when they know you are doing a DL?

What is Confidence/ Presentation/ Knowledge/ Skill going to do for your reputation as a magician when all your secrets are exposed? Yes, magician is an entertainer but you are in SMC because you are a magician, first and foremost. What is the "we can still be entertainer" thingy? If that's the case, you might as well quit learning magic and be a singer or a stand-up comedian. At least, you don't have to bother about secrets.

I really do hope your half-dead brain will be able to come up with something sensible next time.

To say that secrets are the essence of magic is a very stupid idea.

1. Many gambling routines do expose sleights like second and bottoms.
2. The Chinese Linking Ring is one of the most exposed trick, yet it is still popular among magicians.
3. Sucker effect is a kind of exposure.
4. Penn & Teller continually expose their magic. And they are still one of the most popular magicians in America.
5. The Discoverie of Witchcraft is actually an exposure book.
6. There are many books on Magic written for lay people throughout history, magic still survive. (Read: exposing secrets can't kill the art.)
7. Method is not equal to secrets.

There is nothing wrong quoting from the Prestige, but it makes your argument weak. Its like quoting a Fisherman on how to grow better crops. It might be right, but you will have a hard time convincing anyone.

Anyway :off:

About this people, stop caring about them. They are bad magicians. A result of the IT age. They exist, and what can you do about it? Confiscate their cards? Lecture them? Whatever, I will just go on and perform my own magic.

Oh, i perform in mrt also. LOOPS=) one of the best gimmick ever made=)(i think)
people around me will be so damn shock!but i only perform in a distance.No harm ya?

"Nobody cares about how invisible your passes is.. Once people knows the secret, you are NOTHING! Your magic don't mean anything." - NO.

I do perform regularly in school (aka showoff), and a couple of people do have knowledge of what I'm doing. Yet instead of heckling me and chiding on with lines like, "Kidding 3 years old ar? Look properly at his hand motion..", etc, they actually comment on my execution of my move after my performance, may praise for my smoothness at times, or telling me where loopholes are, helping me to improve along the way.

The secret is only part of the performance, other factors like showmanship, audience management, your charisma etc, all aid to make you performance magical.

Regarding on 'guys on the net who expose magic on the pretext of teaching people', the first one i think of is perhaps cardshark88. He is almost godlike in a magician wannabe's world. Laymen praise him, thank him, make thank you and dedication videos to him.. and this spurs him on to make more and more of such videos. <_<

Hmm so you are saying that exposure is not doing any harm to magic? Then why is it so that exposure is not allowed in this forum? If exposing magic cannot kill the art, then why should we be stopped from exposing magic?

There are many books on Magic written for lay people throughout history, magic still survive. Yes, but not many people had read these books. Hence magic still survives. If people continue to expose magic on the TV or mass media, the art of magic will really be killed.

"Without the secrets, we are nothing"

I agree that secret is not everything in magic. You still have showmanship. performance and appeal etc. However, like what muscleaxl mentioned, a singer or a stand-up comedian has the showmanship and appeal. Then what is the difference between a stand-up comedian and a magician? It’s the secret. The secret is the special thing that differentiates us from the other entertainers. The secrets make us unique. That is why we try so hard to guard the secrets of magic.

Without the secrets, we are nothing

I think he is trying to say, without the secrets, we’ll fail to amaze the audience. A magician is someone who performs illusions. If you tell your audience your secret, you are no longer showing them illusions, you are showing them the reality, and they would not be amaze with it. Well at least they will be more amaze if they did not know that you did a DL to change the card. -_-

Without the secrets, we are nothing.

Of course I can see some of us here strongly disagree with this statement. This is because we are magicians and we know magic is not only about secrets. However, most layman will agree with the statement. If they know the secret behind your magic, you are nothing to them. They don’t care if you got excellent showmanship or great original presentation! Once they know the secret, you will be just “fake” or “nothing” in their eyes!

For me I think that this is a good quote to remind us how important it is to guard our secrets.

The purpose of this quote is to stop people from exposing magic, not for us to argue if secret is everything in magic. Although secret is just one of the many ingredients of magic, it is an important and unique ingredient.

From my experience I must say I agree with muscleaxl. I once went to
a magic shop n there was this teenager showing off how great his pass
is. No one ask to see his pass, until the magic/shop-owner have to tell
him to stop in no uncertain terms, "here, I am the only magician".

Another scene, on the MRT, 2 teenagers (usually teenagers) must have
just learnt the French Drop and they keep showing each other how's it's
done in front of like 30 people. I was thinking, don't they know the 3
fundamental rules of magic:
1. Always practise in private.
2. Never reveal a trick.
3. Never repeat a trick.

The problem with magic today is magic has become "cheap". For the
price of a haircut you can acquired a trick without first knowing the basic
rules and regulations of being a responsible magician. "Cheap" not only
in terms of money but also in terms of sense of pride and reponsibility to
the art. And for the young and impressionable it's another conduit to show
off how "cool" you are just like someone else showing off his tattoo or a stunt on his skate board. There is no longer the respect and pride in the
art form.

Secrets are the essence of magic. And how stupid is that?

What is the purpose of magic? Or rather, how is magic different from other forms of entertainment art? Magic seeks to entertain chiefly by doing the 'impossible', and that goal is only possible if the means are kept secret.

If there is no secret and mystery surrounding the performance of magic, then magic will just be a juggling act, purely on 'presentation' and 'amusement'. If that is the kind of entertainment you'd like to do, or would like magic to be, then you are in a league of your own.

1. Yes, many gambling routines do expose sleights like second deals and bottom deals, BUT, they incorporate many other sleights such that at the end of the day, the audience is still bewildered and do not believe that the exposed sleights are the actual ones used. The element of mystery and secret is still there.

2. Yes, the linking rings is one of the most exposed tricks, and I do not perform it. I have encountered people who know the secret and congratulate me on my handling of it, but that is not the compliment I'm seeking when performing. Others may know the secret but do not believe it is possible because of the handling, nonetheless, with the background knowledge, they may guess it to be some catch or advance mechanics, and while the actual secret is not divulged, a plausible solution is thought up which destroys the element of magic (where there must be no plausible solutions).

3. Sucker effects can be considered exposure, but what are they exposing? Some nonsense BEFORE the kicker (which obviously has to be magical and unexpected - for the whole effect to be considered a sucker one).

4. A fallacy of post hoc ergo procter sum. What does popularity as a 'magician' have to do with exposure? So if I tell you that the masked magician exposed a lot of professional secrets, and he was extremely popular for quite a long time, having sold the DVDs internationally, and having the series shown on TVs worldwide, does that make exposure of magical secrets JUSTIFIED?

5. Yes, it is. Like any book that reveals magical methods to the public, I would suppose this had some impact to some extent on the prestige of magic.

6. Magic still survives because there are people who are still not exposed to the art, and because there are still secret which are not yet exposed. But surely we are not seeking the mere 'survival' of magic (ie. as long as it is not 'killed'). In fact, your very statement assumes the fact that exposure DO harm magic, albeit to a non-fatal extent (at least, as of now). And if exposure if harmful to magic, even if it does not 'kill' magic entirely, how can it be at all tolerated?

7. What then could secrets be? Magical incantations? Let's be practical.

Good thinking. But you don't convince me. :D

Well, let me add that i hate exposure. And keeping the secret is important. In fact, VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT, but that doesn't make secret THE ESSENCE of magic. Rather than saying it is stupid (I still think it is a stupid idea), may be I should say sad.

Exactly why "Secrets are the essence of Magic" is a very stupid thought.

I don't think there is anything WRONG with exposure, but it is BAD, just plain BAD. No, I think I should highlight this, in case any one think I am some freak:

BAD

(Wrong and Bad is similar, but not the same. Think about it.)

Where is the masked magician now? Hello, Penn and Teller is still here, and stayed FAR longer.

As for the "method not equal to secret" point, it was just some random pop-up thought. Haha, well......it might be relevant. At least, I like the idea of it.

By the way, what is the REAL reason why we don't expose? (Because the magicians' rule said so? Oh, really?)

Well, do come up with constructive thoughts to challenge my believes! After all, I might be wrong. But please be constructive. :)

Hmm what an constructive argument you have up there.

What is magic to you? What is magic to the audience?

To us magicians magic is not really magical. That is because we know the secrets behind the magic. To the audience, magic should be something that is magicial and something that cannot be explain.

Yes. the laymen in the above example praised and thank cardshark88. Not because he is amaze and not because he experienced the magicial ascpect of magic. He thank cardshark88 because finally he knows the secrets( the most significant element in magic) and he can show how smart he is by telling others he knew the secrets. IS that the kind of "magic" you want your audience to experience?!

And i believe that secrets are the essence of magic. Like what we mentioned, the secrets makes magic different from other forms of entertainment art. If you take out the secret, magic is NO LONGER magical!

Let me ask you a question, "What is the essence of magic to you then?"

Exposing magic is WRONG because of obvious reasons. Some magicians had spent all their whole life inventing, creating and coming up with new ideas to improve the art and you just need to spend one whole minute to expose the magic and their hardwork is ruined! This is just one of the many REAL reasons why we don't expose magic.

But it might be GOOD and not BAD for some people because they became more popular (cardshark88, Penn and Teller etc) For them it is GOOD, at the expense of the WHOLE magic community. It is only GOOD for them and those layman who are thirsty for our secrets!

I think GordonLi's post is already very constructive and it is good enough to show you that there is something wrong with your believes.

Hmm.. Guys, we are supposed to be on the same side.. Why are your posts getting more and more offensive sounding? We can stand our own ground on our beliefs and opinions, but please don't start flaming other people's post yah.

Anyways, just a little input; I feel that the secrets are important, but it most certainly doesn't mean that without the secrets we are nothing. Magic can still be magical even with the secret known. One example is playing with the ITs. I am still very much awed by how magical it looks every single time. (As long as it's done well, with the right lighting and all.) Also the disappearing bird cage, everytime i see it done, it makes my eyes open damn wide. (Thou I know the secret.) Of course, you might be saying that might only apply for a few tricks, but I am just naming this two just because I feel they are the more obvious cases.

And besides, why do magicians still yearn to watch magic shows? To spot their moves, learn their presentations, support fellow magicians? I don't think it's just that.. right? It's because magic is NOT nothing even if we know the secrets. Magic is everything combined.

I remembered Penn saying this in a radio show, 'We exposed how the trick is done at the start of the show, and 20 minutes later, we do the very same trick with the same method we shown them earlier, and they are still totally fooled and floored. We owned them hard.'

Hey, Ace, I am not flaming your post. I am referring to the phenomenon you cited, which is valid! (Oh well, may be I am not being clear. I know I fail my recent GP essay but...)

Do you know that you are (in a way) supporting my argument?

And I never say GodonLi's post is not constructive, I said it was good thinking.

Btw, Ace, you can't compare cardshark88 with Penn and Teller on the same scale, they are world's apart.

Hmm, let me ask you sth, if I do a normal card warp, EXPOSE it, and then do a warpone (the one without card cover), and the whole routine follows with a very good presentation, would you bash me up for exposure?

Haiz, I think we are going no where. I think I should stop here.

Anyway, reading all your post, I find that our thoughts are quite similar. (surprisingly.)

[QUOTE]Hmm, let me ask you sth, if I do a normal card warp, EXPOSE it, and then do a warpone (the one without card cover), and the whole routine follows with a very good presentation, would you bash me up for exposure?[QUOTE]

hmm.. why don't you just perform a normal card warp but don't expose it, then follow it up with a warpone?! Yes, the method you mentioned is good for YOUR presentation. Can you imagine if i perform the normal card warp to someone and he said "hey someone told me how that is done sometime ago!" That is not good for me -_-

anyway i also agree that we should end here as this could go on forever.

I still believe that it is best to keep exposure to the minimum. It's best if you don't expose anything. -_-

Haha.. Chill Guys.. Well as can been seen.. This is how the "New Age Magicians" are becoming, which is a sad thing for the magic community.. Not only in Singapore but everywhere else.. Magic has changed tremendously.. But! We got to adapt and not argue or brood over it~ =)

I am inclined to believe that you are more impressed with the technical skill witnessed (probably with some aid of suspension of disbelief) than you are amazed in the strict magical sense.

And magicians form the bulk of your audience? Magicians perform for lay audiences, and the secret IS the essence of magic, although presentation can ADD to the enjoyment of magic entertainment. But without the secret, you're just watching a juggling act (unless you are a magician, then you are just watching to LEARN how to perform better for lay audiences!).

Magic to magicians may not be solely about the secrets, but to the audience, it is. Your very citing of Penn and Teller shows that at the end of the day, the audience MUST be fooled, and being fooled is about not knowing the secret method (although I am not too supportive of such presentations).

If something is bad for magic, then it may not be objectively (as in the moral or universal sense) wrong, but from a magical perspective, it necessarily is wrong (ethically, because it harms magic).

Regarding Penn and Teller, as I mentioned above, they still have to rely on secrets to ultimately fool their audience, otherwise, they will merely be performers and not magicians (or playing the role of magicians).

And you will tell me that cardshark88 is a magician because and when he reveals those secrets? He could be armed with secrets, but he is entertaining people by revealing those secrets whereas magicians entertain by not revealing secrets and creating mystery. What exposure does is, while presumably popular amongst some people to certain extent, destroying the mystery and hence essence of magic.

Again, I have to stress, what is the difference between magic and other performing arts? Once you can answer that, you have found the 'essence' of magic. My answer to that, is the secrets and hence, mystery, that make magic unique and memorable.

No, I wouldn't. But I don't think it's a very good idea, as much as I think Penn and Teller's presentation is not a very good idea. Whether or not the exposure was justified depends on the quality of the secret exposed, as well as whether exposure was gravely necessary to the execution of the whole effect. But in the end, you still have to fool the audience with something they cannot discern the secret to, so my argument still stands that there must still be secrets for magic to exist in the minds of the audience.

I don't think we're discussing the inevitability of exposure or brooding over it (else, I will be flaming Quinn Cher and McDonalds on the other thread), but rather, something even more paramount in importance - what magic is. Do you know what magic is? I assume from your call for 'adaptation' that you acknowledge that while exposure may destroy reveal some secrets, we have to improve our magical knowledge/skill so we can still amaze with new, improved secrets. So, if I may repeat myself again, and you presumably agree, secrets remain the essence of magic.

Ah.. Guys, first of all, reading the posts can be a headache, because everyone like debating on different things.

Anyway. to conclude everything, I think each one of us is different. We cannot say what is right and what is wrong, because to another person, is might be wrong, or right.

My stand will be, believe in what you believe is right. And you made your stand, and if people disagree with you, so be it. Take it as a note and note that there is billions of people out there, and every mind is different.

Whether it is secret or skill or presentation, it doesnt matter. If you can swim without your hands, people say you are good, but you can also swim with your hands, people will still say you are good.

So please don't start throw bombs to each other, it makes reading the posts pointless. And for a record, if you see another not doing decent magic, do what you want, flame him, ignore him, or simply use your cards and throw at him. :) So do what you want, don't be bothered by other people's thinking.

Ok, after all the long posts, I promise to be brief here... here are my points:

1. Icy, would you post the secrets of your tricks on the net? Would you tell your audience what you did after you performed for them? If not, I think you already know the answer to whether secrets are important. If yes... I really don't know what to say.

2. GordonLi is right. People who will appreciate sleights are only magicians.
Laymen aren't even supposed to "know" there're sleights involved. If your target audience is only to magicians, then well... but if your audience consist of laymen, I hope you don't derive your satisfaction from them seeing how fast you can do your pass.

3. Cardshark88 is just crap! Laymen "love" him because he lets them know the secret for free. He is just a sucker to them. Let him try charging a fee for it, see how popular can he remain.

4. Penn and Teller have BETTER ways to do their stuff than they showed. Gambling routines' supposedly "exposure" are just a way to throw audience off the tracks. I'm sure you know this right? If not, you can ask our gambling sleight master SHADE to explain it.

5. Ace got my point in quoting from The Prestige and I thought it should be very apparent from the context of this topic. Can't see why Icy and Mr Haranpan want to harp on "secret is NOT the essence of magic."

After all is said, I hope that we all ackowledge that we are here to improve on our magic and maybe even the whole industry so let's not eh... argue among ourselves. :D

Sry, just to clarify, Mr Harapan NEVER say that. It was my personal take. So don't drag him in.

I have no intention to ans your question to me, really. In fact, if you didn't put in harapan's name, I wouldn't even bother to post. I suggest you look through my previous posts more carefully to see my answer. It's there.

Anyway, since I have started a post, well, let's just say that you are all right. Right because the majority wins. Because the nature of of art depends alot on the ideals of the majority of its artists. Therefore, since most of you perform magic with this belief, then you are all right. I am wrong.

But I want to challenge that, because it is not a good belief. I think it devalues the art. So, perhaps, more accurately, I should say: "Secret is the essence of contemporary magic." "Secret is not the essence of my magic."

Ok, I will stop here once and for all, just don't put in false information (intentionally or unintentionally) for me to post on this thread again. Anyway, no matter the answer, it is not anything revolutionary or useful or watever, so, well, don't bother.

Something interesting about Penn and Teller,

no matter what they expose 90%(or maybe 100%) of the stuff the expose are original, and here is what it is,

no matter what secrets Penn and Teller expose the next night they get freaked out or "fooled" by criss angel. => this is the reality

the secrets do matter, without methods u cant possibly do something, however as an individual we cant do anything about exposure of secrets.However we can make our own secrets,

if someone know how classic colour change is done , then do another of your colour change, or perhaps invent one

A really good example would be invisible deck, who cares about the secret of invisible deck , I really dont know how it works, however i made my OWN umgimmicked version of a BRAINWAVE.

there fore i conclude that secrets are important and however we can do something else to prevent the exposure of secrets, and by making our own secrets, we prevent the "vanishing" of secrets

i would agree with muscleaxl, i believe everyone would have shown a lay an ACR and you definitely would not want people to say youre just doing a DL and they can do it better... doesnt that makes you nothing in their eyes?

ir every one know about the secret to the things we do then whats there to show...people get amaze because they believe and dont know how a trick is done.

i believe as magicians we also do have a certain trick that we do not and dont want to know. if we all know how its done then you would not look at the trick like the way you do now. just like how lay man knows how an ACR is done. correct?

so, i believe that we should not be exposing tricks but keep it as a secret as it should be...


.'. jon .'.

Ok, I'm sorry, Haranpan never said that. My apologies go only to him, not to anybody else.


Let's end this thread. It's getting a bit pointless.

I am sorry I know this thread was meant to end. But seeing such a long argument make me want to post some thoughts to this topic.

I ask you people a question, how you pick up magic? It all through the books and DVDs and props that magicians made. If they are a selffish sort in which they only keep to themself and not market it out. Do you think you still can learn so much?
I always believe you pay to learn. Even if the magician is generous to share
There nothing wrong to it.
In the current situation, magicians are still so self center. Magic will never improved in this way if you have such thinking. The beauty of magic is to come out something magical yourself and built it.
We are just performing artistises that just build on other magicians work and trying to be so righteous and protective over it.
In this current world now, sad to say, if you have the $$ you can buy what ever is available to learn and increase ur knowledge and amount of magic props will increase tremedously.

My conclusion was don't worry so much on this type of issue. A laymen may know the secrets to the magic. But if you can perform it in a way that can capture his attention and feel that the way you present is so special. He will enjoy what you do also even though he know how it does.

Thread shall end.
Penny for thoughts. :P
Hope no offence to anyone. Just what i wish to say. So start being creative and come out new ideas in magic in which we can move up the level of magic in Singapore.