Hi Makanmonkey,

to answer your concern...in fact when magic toys first started out years ago...stuff like from Tenyo,Chus etc...many does include stuff like cups and balls, svengali cards,marked cards, min illusions like square and circle, and complete with 250 trick instruction booklet with some illusions explanation too..With regards to magic exposure..all other magic toys have already done most of it...

But I don't think much existing magicians do have concern about this issue..as i believe that good magic is not in the secret, but the performance, For example..everyone knows how linking rings is done(a *** ala **** in the ring) but i still use it to close my Stage Shows,receiving an extreme response. PLus in close up i performed the ninja rings and people are still totally amazed!

Fantasma basically brought magic toys to a different level,namely in the few following ways:

-packaging:makes it good for a gift.
-Instructions- they were developed by famous magicians like Simon Lovell and many others,simple and creative routines giving children hours of playtime.
-Quality Control-despite most stuff are from China made..there is a certain quality control for the products, the Paranormal Deck is even air chusioned! Plus their rough and smooth is a pleasure to work with. and all the props are top notched quality.
-Endorsed by International Brotherhood of Magicians (International) ,first ever magic toy to be endorsed!
-And most importantly,i might have said this before..Fantasma dose not sell secrets(secrets are cheap) Fantasma wants to create interest in the public about magic...just like the way u and i started..somebody interest us..

Umm..i think thats alot ive said..hahaz...Thanks for all the kind comments and suggestions.

Best,
Jeremy Pei

Hi Jeremy, dun get me wrong, im all for teaching magic to ppl who have interest in it, but i think mass-marketing magic and making these things readily available for all and sundry isn't a good idea as in my opinion this will breed alot of hecklers.

Yes. good magic relies alot on the presentation, but someone who knows the secret to a trick and does not appreciate the effort in presenting an effect might spoil a perfectly good performance when his/her ego feels game for one-upmanship or he/she feels the need to impress the crowd or friends.

That said, the role of the secret CANNOT be understated -- it plays an important part in spec's appreciatiation of an effect, maybe it's not so obvious to us magi anymore coz we know how some effects work, but that's what gives the mystery to magic, case in point: that day i saw Cynwell perform at his pub, he did some variation of the ACR, signed card and other routines, those ang moh were going "DUDE! I'm telling you! That's REAL MAGIC!!!" and u could see their wide-eyed astonishment , when he got a chio bu to use his signed card (back) to "locate" her signed card (face) her hand was literally trembling with fear as she tried to hold the card... and the look on her face when she noticed the cards were "fused" was just... classic. bl**dy cell (red/white)... Cynwell now i noe y u work there man haha.

Now just imagine the same scenario but with the specs having recieved these kits as Christmas prezzies.

Not quite the same eh?

Dear Jeremy Pei,

I agree wholeheartedly with Makanmonkey. Frankly, I feel a little disappointed for a fact that a highly accredited magician like yourself actually understated the importance of secrets.

Let me give you a couple of examples why I disagree with you. I'll cite David Blaine as an example due to all the recent hoo-ha.

Remember Balducci Levitation? Everyone seems to know how it's done right? Hell, it's even found in a children's magic book! But you remember when David first performed it? It wowed the world. Try performing this trick now in one of your close-up performances and see what reactions you'll get from hecklers. Because of mass-marketing, this trick will never belong in the same category as "David Blaine-Street Magic." It's more like "Big Bird-Sesame Street."

Secondly, I believe Fantasma's selling their version of the Invisible Deck, another effect which good 'ol David Blaine has performed. There goes another wonderful effect as far as I'm concerned. While not many know about the secret of the Invisible Deck at this point of time, if Fantasma's successful, in a year or so, the Invisible Deck will become as dejected in the magic fraternity as the Svengali Deck.

I know you mentioned how you perform the linking rings, Ninja Rings, etc. You have to understand one thing Jeremy, the Linking Rings is an effect that relies more on presentation than its secret to perform effectively. Yes. Everyone knows there's a **** in the rings, but how you hide that will determine how effectively you perform the trick. Many of the tricks offered by Fantasma do NOT belong to this category...Once the secret's revealed, it's curtains to the trick.

You did mentioned that your intentions are to promote magic and not sell secrets? Well seeing your passion and dedication to magic, I do not doubt that. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the intentions of whoever's coughing out the $300,000.00 for the launch. YOU may want to promote magic, but let me assure you that the guys who paid for this wouldn't give two hoots...to them, profit's the key, selling the secrets will bring them the profits. How am I so sure of this? Read the following definitions in laymen terms concerning the various actions:

"Promoting" In a business context, promoting alone will require money. Profits will not be earned if you're doing only promotion. A loss or liability is always evident during promoting.

"Selling" In a business context, selling is done only to either earn profits, or to minimise losses.

"Sales-promoting" In a business context, this simply means the abovementioned two processes working in sync. Promotion is done to generate profits from sales.

Whoever's the business head in this is promoting magic for the sake of selling their secrets for the profit...This is the business plan. That's the reason why the tricks are mostly self-working and require minimal sleights, which makes public digestion easier. Whilst I have absolutely nothing against businessmen, I sincerely think that the motto of "We're promoting magic, not selling secrets" do not apply here. It may be genuine for you Jeremy, but to the business brains of this project, this motto's simply wool that they use to pull over the magic fraternity's eyes.

"But I don't think much existing magicians do have concern about this issue..as i believe that good magic is not in the secret, but the performance" -Jeremy Pei

That's where you're dead wrong and the reason why I'm so disappointed in this entire issue. Good magic is in BOTH the secret and the performance. Knowing the secret but being unable to perform renders the effect useless and vice-versa. If that statement is entirely true, every magician should first reveal his secrets, then blow the audience away with his presentation because that constitutes to "good magic."

You're already a professional international magician. You really shouldn't be making shallow statements like these.

I was about to order my bicycle-backed Invisible Deck from an online store. I guess I don't have to anymore because in time to come, it'll be just about as functional as a Svengali or the Balducci Levitation.

Cheers.

here's my two cents on the matter.

i feel that magic will not die out because a company markets items like the svengali or the invisible deck, or effects like the balducci levitation are readily found on the net.

like i said somewhere else on this forum, what it boils down to is you ENTERTAINING your audience. though secrets are important in magic, it is nowhere near as important as the presentation.

the goal here is to entertain - many magicians have forgotten that. a secret only allows you to be a bit smarter than your audience. it's how you bring your effect to life that creates the magic.

let's say that 90% of the people in the world still haven't bought svengali decks or look up the balducci on the net. you can still fool these guys, right?

but if you're a true entertainer, you can fool even the remaining 10%, and they'll enjoy what you're doing too.

thanks for reading.

The reason Balducci Levitation wowed ppl was thanks to great editing from the crew.

kryptikalism... I think u're missing the point Moondust & I are trying to make, we did NOT say that the secret is the most important part of the magic trick, NOR did we belittle the role of the presentation/entertainment. What we said (I take the liberty to speak on Moondust's behalf) is that they both have to coexist... something like yin-yang, neither is functional on it's own. If the secrets don't matter, then we won't be magicians, we'd just be actors.

As an example, let's say I tell someone who doesn't know abt levitation how to do balducci, then after that I do my best balducci ever, will he/she be impressed? I think not, again I stress... coz we know the secrets behind the effects, us magi can fully concentrate on, and therefore appreciate the presentation of our fellow magi, whereas for the casual spectator the secret is the mystery and that's what makes magic appealing to them, the "how the heck did that happen?!" factor is the fundamental allure of magic. The presentation then serves to make the effect all the more impossible.

Exohordon... haha yes and that too.

My point is this: Not that it's unacceptable to sell magic or to manufacture and distribute magic sets to children in toy stores; it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. However, to sell magic to the general public and saying "We're promoting magic, not selling secrets" is a paradox...a contradiction of sorts. Such a marketing plan comprises of BOTH promoting magic AND selling its secrets.

Second point: "I believe that good magic is not in the secret, but the performance."
Technically speaking, this is wrong. Kryptikalism, you mentioned "let's say that 90% of the people in the world still haven't bought svengali decks or look up the balducci on the net. you can still fool these guys, right?" Precisely! We can fool these guys because they DON'T know how it's done! Isn't the secret just as important as presentation?

"The reason Balducci Levitation wowed ppl was thanks to great editing from the crew." Yeah bro, that's true. What I was referring to was the first performance when Blaine showed it to this young guy near the highway. That scene did not have post-filming editing. Saw how blown away he was? You're less likely to get away with it now because of over-exposure from mass-marketing.

No offence, but I hope that I have clarified my statements.

hello again. just to keep this interesting thread alive.

in response to:

the above is, i feel, a rather unrealistic example of secrets vs. presentation. this i say for obvious reasons. by telling the secret beforehand, isn't it obvious that the trick will fail? no magician does this. if you show a levitation to a spectator who thinks he knows how it's done, and you still fool him in the end, doesn't that show that presentation is still more important?

the secrets DO matter. but not as much as presentation. and we ARE actors. magicians are and will always be actors and actresses. when you do a false transfer, you have to act as if the coin is in the other hand. when you control a card to the top of the deck, you have to act as if the card is still in the centre of the deck. Michael Ammar once said, to effect, that "we have to dislocate ourselves from what is really happening and believe in what is not happening in order to make the magic happen."

is that not acting?

again, the emphasis here seems to be FOOLING people. because fiona xie exposed the double lift on television, does that mean we can't entertain them with an effect that uses the double lift? should we all stop double-lifting?

magic is about entertaining. again i say:

"but if you're a true entertainer, you can fool even the remaining 10%, and they'll enjoy what you're doing too."

i may not have the same beliefs about magic as other people do - it's entirely your opinion, and i sincerely like to hear about them. but for me, magic is entertainment. not about fooling people, or impressing them.

again, i mean no offense to those i quote above. i.e. makanmonkey and moondust. i'd like to know more about what you think about all this.

cheers.

kryptikalism... no offence taken, dun worry, but I think you missed what I was trying to say again, so hopefully the equations will make it clearer... :)

Secrets + Acting = Magic

I quote myself: "If the secrets don't matter [subtract secrets], then we won't be magicians [from magic], we'd just be actors [equals to acting]."

Therefore: Magic - Secrets = Acting. This I believe, agrees with the above.

Note: I did not say: Secrets = Magic.

Really I don't see why you seem to disagree with us, because from what I piece together from you last post you seem to also agree the secret as well as the presentation are important.

I believe that Moondust also shares this view with us "Isn't the secret just as important as presentation?" (Let's not quibble about assigning percentages here, to each his own, what matters is that we establish the secret is an integral part of magic in most cases, and that revealing them would be detrimental, but for the record I think they are of similar importance)

This is exactly what we're trying to say.

Yes, I agree with you, but that's provided:
1. he/she doesn't really remember how it's done,
2. he/she doesn't feel the need to b a heckler (trust me i kena this one today vanishing a lit cig with my TT... one of my frens said "fake thumb right?!" and as it was the first time I was using my Vernet soft for this I wedged my thumb too tightly to take it out and palm it so I just said no but kept my fist closed damn TT... seems to have more friction when its moist. I didn't want to end clean by ditching the TT coz the third person was standing like literally inches from my pocket, and that's where he was looking, and I didn't want him to have chance to say "it's in your pocket!" In retrospect, I could have arm-pitted it or behind the knee-ed it coz I was sitting, but it didn't occur to me at that time, and I've nvr had hecklers when working with TTs, guess I needed this to teaches me not to be too complacent.)
3. you include other moves (in the case of DLs) in your routine to throw a him/her off or do a different routine with similar effect.

No, we should not, put into a card routine, one (not me tho) can mix DLs with passes, forces etc therefore condition 3 will come into play.

Unfortunately what I'm afraid of is numbers 1 & 2 -- if it's a non-card effect, sometimes it's hard to put number 3 into play, so once they remember the secret, number 2 is a real threat. So our concern here is that the secrets should not be made too readily available.

Fellas!

let's look at us- the circle. A latter-day round table we may be, but knights we may not.

We are almost like a self-destroying paradox- a group which allows entry for anyone (ANYONE!) without any admissions test or anything at all, and dedicated to discussing magic- an art which is only effective to those who are genuinely ignorant of the secrets. We have to discuss secrets, then, so why are we still here?

By that stand, I must say that magic is certainly a performance art, and secrets are paramount in this performance. Of course other factors come into play- like when we all see our friends and co-magi perform something we can do, we might marvel at their skill or misdirection or showmanship or something.

That's where it is absolutely clear that magic only baffles the ones who don't know the secrets, but it can impress the ones who do. All these aspirations, like baffling and impressing, can constitute Entertainment, which is vital and fundamental in all Performance.

Both these 2 components of magic are essential, symbiotic perhaps; one cannot work without the other. A good performer can do a trick with a dumb secret well, as long as the audience is ignorant of the secret. A trick with a good secret with a bad performer will just be miserable, as we all know.

As proud defenders of the art, we must keep both alive. To arms, knights!

I am,
I remain,
iamthewalrus

I am really enjoying this thread, good posts from both sides :)
Here's my take on it....

Makanmonkey and Moondust's stance is that secret is a very important, even critical part of magic, I am of that basic opinion as well.

I know it's very often and popularly said (in here by krypt as well) that "the secret is not the most important part; knowing how it's done is not enough. It's the presentation of an effect that makes it magic."
I agree with that statement very much, but i think that is said in a DIFFERENT CONTEXT. That is talking about not relying on just knowing the secrets of an effect to impress your specs, but that a COMPLETE performance must include good presentation as well. It is spoken as a warning that performers shouldn't just rely on the cleverness of the secret, but spend as much, or even more, time with the presentation as well.
A (unspoken) pre-condition is still that the secret of how it's done is still hidden from the audience.
Rather than looking at it as a something plus something formula, i prefer to see it as a tube/journey/water-flow thing:

[Me] | Secret | Presentation | Audience Management | Personality | [Magician]

Without secret and presentation, no matter how well i can manage an audience or how interesting my personality is, i can never be a magician.
I will probably be a good stand up comedian, but I will not be a magician.

By that I also mean, without secret, no amount of presentation will suffic.

ReDiFiNe bought up a good point with his linking rings routine. He said that even thou it's a well exposed secret now, he has still gotten good reactions with it. But I dun think that necessarily means secret is unimportant. The reasons i find are these:

1. It's an exposed secret because many people have heard friends mention that there's a *** in the rings. But it remains very much a "rumour" thing and most of them have no chance to verify it themselves. It is also very vague, most are not sure if it's in 1 ring or all the rings or a secret button you press.

2. By changing/improving the presentation, it can reinforces and strengthen the secret, maybe even almost beyond recognition. For this, my "Water Flow Model" fails.
But this is a limited thing and i dun think it can be said that "it's ok if we lose the secret, we just change the presentation and it's a new secret again". It can spring little surprises, but not completely turn it around.

3. It IS possible to entertain someone even if they have seen your trick or know your secret. More about that later....

Kryptikalism's take is that you STILL can ENTERTAIN an audience without fooling them. You can still IMPRESS a spec who already knows how something is done. I agree with both statement.

But in my opinion, both cases have deviated from magical entertainment.
You CAN entertain a roomful of people without fooling them. Just like a comedian can. Or a singer can. Or an actor can.
The very essence of magical entertainment is that something "magical" happens for the entertainment of the audience.

And you can impressed a whole lot of people even thou they know how you did something. I'm sure all of us has had people commented "he's got really fast hands" or "he's so smooth when he does that" or "oooo....you've.....got really.....fast........and agile....fingers baby...mmmm...wanna come over tonight...?". Ok, maybe not the last one, but you get the idea. Yes, it is possible to impress them with our mastery of sleight of hand and techniques.
That's why i practised the muscle pass till i get blisters ^_^ I figured if I get a magician laughing at my mediocre skills or a heckler, i can do the muscle pass and impress them with it -_- , whether they know or not know it. Because it is generally a difficult move.

But again that's not quite the same as magical entertainment isn't it? It's more like "impressive entertainment", not unlike a juggler.
We know he is just throwing things into the air and catching them. We are impressed because we know it's not as easy as it looks, and we are probably entertained as well, by both the display of skills and his patter.

It IS entertainment no doubt. And impressive no doubt. But it's NOT QUITE magic.


And that was my 2 cents on it...

This is an interesting thread :), it has certainly made me think about things I haven't thought about before. Keeps the opinions coming from all directions B)


Cheers

Yes, the who's in who's out question has been a nagging issue, and i suspect it always will be...
Admissions tests can mean nothing actually and shows nothing abt the user.
That's why there's a strict rule of non exposure in the forum itself.
If someone is willing to filter thru the "technical talks" which may mean nothing to them when they are layman and actually come out and meet us, i suppose that's as good a test as any for a geniune interest in learning.

Hi!

Sorry Morphine! I guess that quote wasn't really clear, nor was it really reflective of my post. In the end, magic is a performance art, with secrecy wound all around it. Symbiosis? Surely

My question at the end of my quote in your post was meant to be answered with the simple truth that magic, and magicians, are part of our lives, and we should be so happy for that. Our very existence as a group, and our lack of any inaccurate mismeasure of our magi, is testament to that fact! In fact, the ridiculous enforcement of a sad separation between the magi and non-magi is wrong, and this group serves to bridge the traditional misconceptions of the public and the evolving principles of the magic folk. Excelsior!

wow. you guys really fry my noodle. i agree with your equations, makanmonkey. very well said, i must say. i've really nothing much to add, but i'd say that this thread has illuminated me about the more interesting parts of magic.

a question comes to mind. is presentation part of the secret of magic?

what do you say?

There is no definite answer for that, because the concept of a "secret" is easy to understand; secrets can easily be understood and seen from a perspective away from magic itself, whereas presentation comprises of too many elements of overlapping and ambiguity in order to solely pinpoint its presence, definition or role in such a generic scenario.

The secret is definitely a part of magic, an important part that is. I guess it's more accurate to say that the secret is involved in presentation, but in this sense, presentation doesn't enhance the secret. Secrets cannot be enhanced...either you know it, or you don't. It's as clear as black and white. Presentation enhances the act itself.

Therefore, I think the presentation revolves around the secret to make the act possible, and I don't think that presentation is part of the secret. Just imagine a process of nuclear fission: The atoms make that happen, but does that make the electron a part of the atom? Then again, can we kick off the splicing of the atoms if the electrons aren't there in the first place?

Food for thought ;)

Hmm... nvr heard this expression b4 haha but i think it's pretty clever B)

heyyy... now i c ur queston... not very-the-obvious leh no wonder i was straining hard to remember wat qn u posted when u said no one answered u B)

hahahaz...i was shocked to see such a long thread from a post i started supposing just to tell you guys the differences between Fantasma Marketing Strategy and others...okok since we are talking more on the performance of magic ..here are some points i can highlight...

I personally understand that good magic performance depends alot on the secret as well as the presentation...There are many way a performer can look at it...If you are considering that Fantasma Magic might release too much secrets into the laymen fartenity...you might like to ask how most magicians nowadays got started doing magic... To tell the truth, i have received alot of feedback from my Fantasma Performers and many customers actually bought magic sets before ..but they end up throwing it away as they could not understand what is that about..this may result in them just wanting to know secrets and not learning the magic well and promoting this art...so the final point why I say Fantasma is not just about selling secrets..thats because secrets are cheap but an interest, its priceless..
Following on wat i said just now...most people proberbly started with the POW tricks from Gician..or a Magic DVD..so did you consider at that point when you pick up that trick that hey..y are these stuff so easily accessible to me? POW tricks has Linking rings, multiplying balls, sponge rabbits, plus many many more secrets..the new range Gician puts up also has the Pen-o-tration , rings-scape,-Ultra Wallet plus more that Fantasma also has..and it fact it is cheaper that Fantasma Magic...Fantasma is the only magic product endorsed by the INternational Brotherhood of Magicians USA...no doubt I would say this is a very Clever Business..but if you digest ...Magic is a business..Jeff Mcbride once said..Magic is a Business..A Magician needs to be a good businessman..or else where they get their gigs...

I don't present myself to my audience as a Magician (to fool them or to trick them),however i present myself to my audience as an entertainer,an artist....My job is to give them a good time ...thats my view of magic..i like to use magic to trigger peoples emotions and to let people know more about myself as a person through my perfromance..its like when they leave my show, they would feel like they just make a new friend...

A comment i read was that someone said that myself as an International Performer ,and i have this take about magic is not all about secrets.. I would like to say that yes,magic is not all about secret..but neither is it not...Secret is important, but secret can be found anywhere...internet, local magic shops, "SHEREZZA" , plus many other sources...hmm..y must Fantasma be taking the blame here? There are more serious secrets to be exposed, laymen can just search for anything and easily find them...there is a russian site exposing all of copperfield secrets!!! but hey he still sell out the theater every single show he performs..people dun go to see the magic..they go to see David Copperfield..

I may be speaking in a more commercial point of view, you can have a celebrity perform simple magic and yes he will sell out more theater that a skillful magician unheard of...

I personally closely guard my secrets too ...When people ask me to teach them a trick..i usually have one or 2 simple stuff to teach them..maybe a cut deeper force or simple ace cutting..but..trust me when they know how its done..rather than saying.."Oh..just like that ar"..they would be saying "hey! thats interesting..."

Everybody knows that magic is not real..its all sleight of hands and illusions..but there are still people enjoying it..like someone said..Cynwell performs at the club and got good reaction for an ACR..yeah he probably got a responsive crowd and he has a good presentation..people are entertained and having a good time..thats more important...

with regards to the saying of not buying an invisible deck anymore...hey, i think its perfectly fine to still perform an invisible deck...look at the mask magician..he exposes practically every classic illusions..including TT and LInking rings plus manymore..Every magician still performs the classic now..sword basket..zig zag...sawing a lagy in half..linking rings...I perform all those in my show..y no people are saying that hey i know how that is done..because i use my presentation to enhance the performance..people clap and applause because they are entertained! So please buy that Invisible Deck..hahaz...I don't usually perform invisible deck..but hey after seeing the Fantasma one with the invisible hanky..i am starting to like the effect!

BTW, many local magicians purchase the Fantasma Magic Product range too..and I am sure that there are many people out there interested in magic tat would like to pick up a few trick...hmm..lets see..would it be better for them to go to MC and learn the Ambitious card as well as all the professional stuff u guys performing easily or go to Toys R Us and start from the basic stuff ...hahahaz...thats my take..

Magic is too expose now..which is good! Its no longer an underground thing..in fact i dun wish it to be an underground thing..i have an ambition to make magic a media hot topic in Singapore..with magicians going for magic conventions all around the world (singapore magicians have not seen much of overseas), competing and winning gold back for Singapore..I hope something like that would be possible for local magic scene...I am glad that there are more TV shows nowadays as well as more advertising on magic around Singapore..thats good in fact..

In every laymen they still have this certain emotional trigger in them for you to use your magic to touch them... be it a magician..i still get amazed sometimes..and i like it!:)

hmm..i am writing base on wat i have read along this thread..any comments please add on..thanks!

Best Regards,
Jeremy Pei

i'd have to say this to your post, jeremy:

well said.

"magic is business" might not be applied to a hobbyist, i think. if you're out to learn magic for the sake of entertaining just your friends or as icebreakers, then magic won't be much of a business for you.

nonetheless, it's an interesting phrase to say about magic..

Dear Moondust

Oh i went through the topic again and saw this statement..hmm..i dun think i am making any shallow statements...Yes indeed i repeat that good magic is not in the secret..no doubt secrets are important but it boils down to our performance of the effect..hmm if you are saying that the invisible deck cannot be performed as Fantasma is doing well..hmm..invisible deck has been in the market for so so long and so so many magic shops has been selling it to the lay public..in US and other countries..common shops overseas /and local...are selling invisible decks...plus many others,,coin shell and all to the public like hotcakes...And if you are a good magician, you will be able to perform the invisible deck in such a way that it will still entertain and amaze the audience...

Haha, and i this that the statement of revealing magic to audience before you perform , is really * ;) * ..y would somebody ever do such stuff..hahaz...or u can look at other ways...have u ever took out a deck of cards and have someone select one and they say they have seen it before...yet u still blow them...

Same story i will tell...I perform "Linking RIngs" to close my full Stage Show...I can easily tell you that 80 % of the crowd knows there is a hole in the ring..yet i have received ovations performing it...

Then in return if secret is really important..i guess we should start performing effects like free float and walking on water..of which people will regard as black magic...which in the first place practitioner of magic art dun want that to happen..magic is merely a form of entertainment for people...

Fantasma should not be taking blame and moreover due to an invisible deck... THere are TV magic show exposing the classic force..think we should be concern with that......

Jeremy Pei:)

Dear Jeremy Pei,

First, I thank you for taking the effort to painstakingly read and reply to this discussion.

However, I would wish to beg to differ on an objective basis, so please do not take offense to this:

I'm not blaming Fantasma or questioning it's intentions when it markets magic. Neither am I blaming per se Fantasma for selling the invisible deck... and of course it's nuts to tell someone how you do a trick before you do it and hope that they will be wowed when you perform... I cited those as examples to reinforce the relevance in my points.

I have never denied the importance of the performance aspect in magic. I do agree that the presentation is important, as I have said again and again... but so are the secrets, which you may have seemingly understated in your earlier posts.

Every marketing team in the business of magic will understate the importance of secrets for profits; i.e. profits are the priority, not the secrets. Thereby, if you are "marketing magic, not secrets" it may only be applicable to you because of your sincerity in the art, but your marketing team thinks otherwise.

It's possible that you're not making shallow statements...but perhaps in a way, not enough thought has been put into it before expressing, which I can fully understand. Text and spoken words are often different.

Jeremy, when it comes to magic, I can't possibly hold a candle to you. However, what I'm contesting here is definitely not about your knowledge or commitment in magic, but the gyst and intentions of the marketing team behind Fantasma.

In your position, it is not in business ethics to question their objective, and being the Singapore's team leader, you are obligated to fulfil the company's objectives. So, let me repeat once more: Selling magic for a profit or a business is fine...what I hope that you can understand is based on my business definitions provided in my previous post, and that whenever a company sells magic, you're selling the secrets, not promoting magic. A company may indeed promote it's products, but ultimately it goes back full circle because the core intention is to sell, and to earn profits.

It all boils down to working on your art for a profit or not. Neither is wrong or right, but as long as you are selling magic in gift packs, you're selling a secret. If you're holding a stage performance professionally, you're selling your entertainment. It is your good presentation that promotes magic. This is what I'm basically debating.

Hope you can see my point from here-on.

With Regards, Moondust

moondust...

if you are condering Fantasma as selling secrets..how do you explain other magic sets as well as local magic shops selling professional secerts...I think that point should be highlighted first...and your main point should be...the magic shop should only be available to us magicians...but where did you started....?

As team leader in Singapore.I hold the responsibility to promote magic in Singapore as an art...its doing well so far...As per my my previous post..if you consider the marketing team to do it this way to make money...They would not invest a sum of money on my team to perform regularly at the store to promote the productss..they are confident that Fantasma is the right toys for beginners that it is getting its own stand alone booth...

BTW,if you are still not agreeable with the releases of secrets..I seriously think that the pro shops should be the ones you should be against...

Best ,
Jeremy

Ps: maybe i would like to know what kind of magic you perform moondust as well as your devotion to the magic art...

Wow things are heating up again!

Jeremy... none of us are challenging your credentials, so please do not challenge ours. We all have our priorities in life, yours seems to be magic, mine (for now at least) is to finish the stupid degree and graduate. Also please do not take any of our posts as a personal affront to you, none of them are meant to criticise you as a magician or businessman.

Let me put my (and I think also Moondust's) concern to you... of course magic is a business, that's how magic shops survive, and we know and fully accept that. Now when someone is interested in magic naturally the first place he/she will go to is *drumroll please*... a magic shop. If the person so happens to chance upon let's say the invisible deck, he/she will have access to it's secret. I don't think anyone objects to that, because this person walked into the shop with the specific intent of finding a magic trick.

Yes indeed, but Gician novelties aren't as widely marketed as Fantasma, and Gician novelties are usually dismissed as "toys" by many people. The people who purchase it, in most cases, are the ones who will end up using it. I don't think anyone reading this ever got a Gician trick as a Christmas present! Therefore, there is limited accessibility, and again we have intent

I agree with that... but again, because it does take some effort to find all these things, accessibility is somewhat limited, and there is intent in their actions. Again, no one is blaming Fantasma k?

I have to disagree with the first line, some effects are so powerful when presented properly that some people will think.... maybe this guy has powers-bodering-on-supernatural. Perhaps you were induced into magic at a young age so you aren't so gullible, but when I was like in lower sec I still believed that maybe some magicians had satan's number on their speed dial... then again it might be just me.... and yes the presentation is very important (that "someone" is me btw)

Again, the information to these effects (excluding the more common ones) are not that readily accessible and when they are, it is with intent that the person found it.

I do believe promotions such as these are not allowed in the forum per se, only in select threads, just to remind you.

I think all of us would like to see magic get a firm hold of people's interest too... but as I said in an earlier post, we'd just be actors without our secrets, and do most of us want that? there won't be any difference from us & the run-off-the-mill Fiona Xies and Gurmit Singhs.

Again, I would like to point out that as magicians we appreciate another magi's effect from a different perspective, so that "trigger" you mention in laymen is what I believe to be the impossiblity of the effect. Just like when I did my TT pit-ditch at the last gathering... Ren & Lloyd (I think, I can't remember who was at the table) knew what was going on, and prolly appreciated the ditch itself, but my friend Simon (who's a newbie) was wondering where the heck it went. Guess who was more astonished?

I've been stressing accessibility and intent throughout my post because I wanted to make a point that yes, the secrets are available to those who seek them, but when one markets these things especially at seasons of indiscriminate giving, accessibility increases exponentially, and unfortunately intent goes in the opposite direction.

Please don't get offended agin by this post, we are not singling out you nor Fantasma for bashing... it's just that we are concerned by the availibility of magic secrets.

Dear Jeremy,

Please do read my post again.

I am not against the marketing of magic.

What I'm saying is that when you sell magic kits, you are selling its secrets, beginner or pro. I don't see the relevance in you indicating that my attention should be on magic shops? And why should I be against the pro shops? I'm not even against the sale of magic...what I'm arguing is the fact that you deem seliing magic toys as promoting magic.

Like I said: Selling magic / Selling magic toys / Books / Vids = Selling secrets.

You are a pro performer? Yeah, fine. Thereby: Performing magic for money = Selling entertainment.

So, you justify your devotion to the art by performing the art? Fine! So Performing magic = Promoting magic.

And as you can evidently see from this basis, Selling magic is not technically = to promoting magic.


I am arguing on the STATEMENTS which I have broken down in the form of a formula above, I'm NOT arguing on whether promoting magic is right or wrong. I am NOT arguing against the sale of secrets. I AM arguing on whether you should be understating secrets as a professional magician on your part, NOT because you're selling Fantasma products, but BECAUSE you mentioned that secrets aren't important in your earlier post.




"Ps: maybe i would like to know what kind of magic you perform moondust as well as your devotion to the magic art..."

I really hope that this question is objective and not used as a cheap shot against me. You know full well I do not have your credentials. If it's a cheap shot, I won't reply to any more of the posts here anymore because you are not being objective about it.

But if that question is indeed genuine, then my answer's this: I studied magic from Charles Choo and Patrick Wan between 1985 to 1989. My family's poor and there wasn't any Internet so my resources are strictly limited. My most expensive prop back then was a Fantasio Vanishing Cane and a Dancing Cane add-on (which Charles Choo made for me), which I performed on stage back in 1988 in school. I just started again several months ago. No distinct speciality but I have been studying and doing card routines (no manipulations though, and you can see a routine that I have posted in the "Cards" thread), basic silverware bending, and pending an IT order that I have placed for 11 of the members here, I'm trying to catch up on close-up levitations.

My practice is as a hobbyist only...for now. I perform mainly to friends and colleagues who are supportive of my study in magic.

Let me know if you have any other queries.

Regards, Moondust.

P.S. Read my posts once again. I have never questioned your devotion nor integrity in the Art of Magic and I hope you can give me the same respect as I have given you in this sense. Should you decide to question my devotion to the Art once again, please read some of my other posts in this forum to see if I can be considered a devotee or not. I'm not some hot-shot superstar magician who has the capability to tell others what I have achieved or what awards I have won due to my miserable lack of exposure. I may have less professional devotions and obligations as you have, but that doesn't make me a less spiritually devoted person in Magic.

P.S.S. Just so that you know, I lost my life-savings in a bad investment (read my introduction post) a couple of months ago, and now I have a full-time job in the day and a part-time business I run with my partner at night. I sleep an average of 4 hours a day due to my schedule and yet I make it a point to post in this forum, attend the last meet, and practice my magic for at least an hour every night. Let me know if this is considered devotion according to your professional acumen.

Dear MakanMonkey,

Thank you for trying to explain my intentions. I think you have gotten it spot on. I have never taken this personal and I hope that none of the people discussing it here will be unobjective.

Regards, Moondust.

Just to make sure that you understand ,i am not giving u a cheap shot...y would i do that... ;) ..the reason is that I am considering the kind of magic u do with the statements that you stated in the previous post..if you happen to be a dealer or a pro performer..then .....I would take those post personal as well...So please dun use some of the previous text as a "cheap shot" to me too....

Be it saying selling secrets in terms of selling magic sets..i repeat again what I have stated in previous post..or rather, i will tell you how Fantasma came about:

4 month ago Albert Tam (HK magician) called me and told me he is Fantasma Asia Entertainment Director..he wanted me to assist him in promoting this brand in Singapore via Toys R Us..Toys R Us has bought all the products (of course their main intention is to make money)...Of course upon hearing this I am skptical too...I am thinking whether its like another magic demo thing that sells for a few months ,make the quick bucks and leave....I personally own a PRO SHOP too for past 6 years...At once i did have a store front shared with a friend...but after all its hard to profit from selling magic...so i operate on a personal basis...So Y would I take on Fantasma....Albert showed me some of the products as well as the vision of the company....

Fantasma wanted to emphasies again....We are not selling secrets(Secrets are cheap)...its like the magic section at chinatown ..those are selling secrets..."Hey you can buy this at $5 and you can know how its done" ..however Fantasma we approach by selling an interest, a hobby...just like how u started ..with charles choo..I believe he sold you a hobby thats y you are still doing magic till now..however if he just sell you the secret to say...The vanishing Elephant..all you know is the secret .,.u cannot perform it...then you might not be doing magic at all... Why do we have Fantasma Magician at the store everyday, because we offer value added services...we perfom for them..intro to them wats suitable..making sure they can play with the toys..at the same time we offer to tutor them if they cannot understand the instructions...So we are selling an interest to beginners of magic..especially to children..playing magic is better than spending hours in front of video games...
Umm..magic kits is not a new thing...look at pro performers like Lance Burton..Seigfried and Roy ,Franza Harrary....They all have their personal magic sets that they sell after their show or to give out to an audience helper...hmmm..if according to what you say....then they are giving secrets for free!!hahaz...but hey one day i will have my own magic set too...y? thats how everyone starts...A magic set does help to promote the art of magic to the buyer...ok if you insist..they are learning secrets to the trade....

Its true magic is not real..i have been on media interviews many times and asked this question...is magic real? I always say ..no its entertainment and its like a movie...it takes you on a ride of mystery and amazement...Magic is not real...Famous Illusionist Andre Kole..he challenged anybody who can perform a real miracle in front of him..and that person will receive $1000000 USD...I am saying all these probably I don't want my audience to feel that I am using supernatural powers ..this is unlike performer like Darren Brown..he claims he has supernatural powers..but breaking it down his stuff are protrayed done by suggestions to his audiences as well as NLP,Psycology etc...He tells his audiences this before his performances...

Umm..it can be quite easily accesible...PLus selling magic toys in stores..they would not buy if they are not interested..Hearing from my Fantasma Performer...most of the people already has magic sets at home...

hahahaz...i am merely making a comment about asking you to buy invisible deck as its a good trick...

OK maybe this might answer the questions...Fantasma Magic Range is marketed as Fantasma Toys ..check out www.fantasmamagic.com ..if you still question Fantasma Magic marketing etc...i think u should talk to our CEO in New York...

No...many magicians perform magic in diff perspective..i am making comment base on how i perform..i dun present an effect as how impossible it is...maybe because i am a stage perform /illusionist..i dun do that much close up magic..i focus more on giving my audience a good time..letting them experience emotions when watching my performance..be it sad,happy,laughter,tense,romance,suprises etc...i dun focus on "hey u know how i do it? " ...just give you some examples of the way i structure my magic performance (a basis stage show i do for location events)

I opened with a dynamic opening act to hype up the crowd..mainly to get their attention ..flashy and visual..not much thinking is needed on the audience part..also this act tells them who I am ...after establishing my presense on that stage...

I introduce myself and perform some stand up effects and interactive effects but using comedy and music to trigger their emotions...so when a trick happen..they won't have the impression of being fooled..i dun want that..i wan to entertain them and approach them as a friend...

I perform some romantic routines as well as inspirational routines...I tell my audience about my life as i proceed through my show ,it might sound wierd as y would i do this...i dunno..its just the way i perform my show..and i hope by the end of a show i made friends with all my audiences so if one day i put up my second big theater production..they might say..he this guy we have seen him before and he gave us a good time..we should support him...Every friend is a fan....:)

One of DC specials talks about people whom actually cry and wrote letters watching his snow illusion...and DC also said in that show that he use magic to express himself..his dreams ,his life...

I feel i want my magic to take that route...rather then purely makin money out of it..i i really want to make money only..i should just do children show and children parties...thats where the money is..and ive been there so i know...

I am not saying here that everyone should perform the way i do..if you force yourself to perform a certain way that its not u..it could be terrible...so develope you own persona....

Umm i dunno thats how you feel but i personally feel that at this season..its the best time to promote MAgic....many top pros nowadays will say stories like they receive their first magic set during christmas..at what time would people purchase toys..umm..birthdays and Christmas! this is the best time to market to the mass...and maybe we would have the next Singapore Magic Superstars in 20 years time...and i would love to hear them saying on TV "I started out magic with a magic set i received during christmas 20 years ago, its a FANTASMA MAGIC SET" " Wow i would feel a sense of pride and happiness ...I can tell you that Charles Choo is probably so proud now as many of us..including myself..starts out at his shop when we were kids...


I would like to end saying that i am not shooting words at anybody here..i am just giving my point of view to those comments made..neither do i wish to see personal statements at me..i am not saying you are challenging my credentials...but it is my job as a MAgician / Fantasma Team Leader...to clarify any doubts you might have...if i continue to be silent about this..hey...i might lost some businesses..hahahahahz :lol:

Best regards,
Jeremy Pei

This is interesting as it gets.. Well.. we all have 2 minds about this one issue.. Allow me to share mine.. Basically magic is some what an underground secret. Gimmicks etc are magic which of course once allowed to others would destroy the secrecy of magic, yet to a small extend.

The world ever changing. If Jeremy's company doesn't sell such products, others will.. If they can't get it from Jeremy, Penguin magic and ellusionist will..

Since magic is ever changing and gimmicks are that easy to come by, the greater worry honestly, would be on the issue of Street Magic shop in Kovan.. I'm not against that shop.. however, we have to know that gimmicks can't help others to improve in magic.. More crucial, would be skills like DL, Betram change, colour change.. all this cannot be obtained from gimmick shops.. and this sets a different standard for us magicians, collectively. There are just too many toys out there which can be tuned to become magic. Even a toy Car!

A common term used at SM, Kovan would be that "magic is nothing special and what you see on TV can be done. It's all a slide of hands." Such a phrase to each customer or passer-by. Would you still consider magic to be at it's up most? Or has it been degraded.. It's best encouraged that gimmicks be taken to the next level - to be seen as novelties.. While skilled magic remains as the true magic in our hearts. As the world progresses, we can never expect gimmicks to be in safe hands..

The greater appeal, is to stick together as a body in keeping the skills of magic within the strict circle of magic. Honestly, worry about SM.. Dont worry about gimmicks.. Magic Wan can't be stopped for selling Gimmicks.

A skill cannot be lost.. People will out grow toys one day.

Just a neutral comment. Do share too.

Great day,
Chris

Gimmick isn't a NO-NO to all magicians, magicians must learn how to use gimmick and sleight of hand, improvising both together to form a stronger effect.

Alot of people think that a magician using FULL Gimmick is called a Gagster or Trickster, and someone who execute moves with SLEIGHT of hand is a Magician. Somehow i don't really agree to this, a magician in turn provides entertainment so does the Magician who is using full gimmick.

Somehow the gimmick which you are using must of course be related to magic, therefore to be called a magician like e.g Coin Biting, Key Bender. Parts and Parcel are also known as Magic. As Magic is a full term of (Coin/Cards/Rubber Band/Pencil/Pen/Marker/Keys/Metal Bending/Mentalism and so on) the list could get longer, the stuff which fantasma are selling are good too. Especially the $99 Magic Set which i always wanted to get.

"we have to know that gimmicks can't help others to improve in magic.. More crucial, would be skills like DL, Betram change, colour change.. all this cannot be obtained from gimmick shops.. and this sets a different standard for us magicians, collectively. There are just too many toys out there which can be tuned to become magic. Even a toy Car! "

Actually Gimmicks help our magic to be even more mysterious and entertaining, gimmicks actually does something which our normal sleight of hand can't even do, therefore a gimmick is thought of and been done.

A common term used at SM, Kovan would be that "magic is nothing special and what you see on TV can be done. It's all a slide of hands." Such a phrase to each customer or passer-by. Would you still consider magic to be at it's up most? Or has it been degraded.. It's best encouraged that gimmicks be taken to the next level - to be seen as novelties.. While skilled magic remains as the true magic in our hearts. As the world progresses, we can never expect gimmicks to be in safe hands..


The common term used at SM maybe is that but afterall if you are someone who isn't interested in Magic. You wouldn't walk into a Shop name "Street Magic" since you know it's related to magic out of curiousity, since the people who walked in might even have a 1% Interests in magic, things might work out fine in the end. We all started with those wow wow attitude and feelings when we see friends/David blaine/David Copperfield/Criss Angel and so on performing live on National TV. When we start picking up this Art of Magic, i believe our interests isn't 100% as interest in magic was slowly been developed as our Experience, Performance, Failure, Success increases.

But for the sentences made by SM, i would give any remark. Anyway it's a branch linked to Magic Castle, so i believe Solomon might know how to react when he hear this sentences. Why not you tell Solomon this sentences, haha ~

Somehow Gimmick and Sleights of hand are linked together, in magic we cannot afford not to use gimmick or sleight of hand, we must use both too.

For SM, i believe those people who actually walk in does at least possess the 1% or the 0.01 rating of interest in magic. Therefore it's the staff job to tell them how can they actually pick up the Art of Magic as an Hobby/Semi Hobby- Semi Pro/Fully pro.

*Peace*

Hey guys!

Since we are talking something about street magic here...me and my bunch of magic kakis has this saying of people who claim performing "street magic"

Hmm, wat is street magic ..

1) Street Magic ala David Blaine performed on TV

2) Street Theater , to collect money ,ala busking.

If you are considering going to public and perform as street magic..then its the TV magic...Street Theater is a whole new different genre...

I would not like to use the term street magic but rather jus close up magic...

I have nothing against SM magic shop but just thinking that there should be a more proper way of getting beginners into make..most of the newbies nowadays (correct me if i am wrong) starts off by learning the PASS or Crazy Cuts and Shuffles.but they dun have a well structured routine that they can perform for their audience..they learn moves rather than magic..

Umm..i have a magic background as my dad was a magician so i learnt from the basic...the standard cups and balls, linking rings, silks, birds, canes, candles...etc..card manips...plus whole lot of close up...

I guess nowadays the idea of magic to many newer magicians is about the hand thingy..crazy cuts and shuffles and learning difficult sleights first..Nothing much we can do about this... ;)

Jeremy

I agree, when is the last time someone bought/ read a magic book?

yeah. i guess too many young magis nowadays are starting with flourishes and passes. how come? can we get some comments from these young magis?

I would like to add to everyone's protests that we are really not talking/against/condemning Fantasma Magic at all.
Far as I was concerned, we were talking abt generally the relation of magic and secrets and the effects of overexposure of certain secrets.

Having said all that has been said, end of the day, pratically speaking, at the end of the day, there is NO WAY we can control/decide/choose who has access to the secrets and who doesn't.
On a micro scale, like our forum, we can enforce non-exposure rules, and ourselves as individuals we can choose who we want to give tips/ teach. But once an item/secret is a product or a magic shop is in operations, there is absolutely no way that we can control who buys it and who comes in. If someone REALLY wants, they can jolly well spend a few hundred dollars and then mass mail all his friends the secrets of all the tricks.
This is simply reality, and i dun think magic sellers are to blame for it. With the internet so deeply entrenched in our lives now, that is even more true. Magic is not and will never be a secret society for a few ever again.
Forces greater than ourselves are at play here. Our collective group behavior and market forces just 2 of them. Like all other artforms going thru changes, I guess we can only hope the art evolves and adapts and will survive all these new factors and changes, and survive to greater heights.

This has been a good thread, keep it coming :)

Ditto, nicely said Morphine!

...As much as we have the passion for Magic, it's true that we can only be its Keeper to a certain extent. Everyone has to start from somewhere, and everyone has different motives and purposes... inspiring magicians could turn hecklers, and vice versa...

Reality bites. Magic is no longer like it was years back where it truly was mytical. It's all got to do with the audience maturity and well, the development of our culture.

^_^ Dare I say, this has been one of the most interesting threads on SMC... keep your posts coming in you guys!

Am i young enuf dude?

I didnt start with flourishes and pass. I started with something i think is the most basic. DLs...

Me myself dont like people starting in magic because they want all the secrets in magic, then turn into a heckler. I wont let that happen. If one of my friends wants to start magic, teach him a simple sleight and call him to practicie and let me see te next time i meet him.

If he has practiced, it doesnt matter if he fail a few times, as long as u can see that he have gave the effort to practice, teach him some more tricks.But if he stills quit magi after that u can kick him in the A** and Lay the curse of thee monkey paw on him.

-Peace-

I personally think that with all those gimmicks stuff sold can't be much of a help for really interested magis, as there are no explanation on how to present and give an impactful patter on the trick. So we, the REAL magis don't really need to worry, as the general laymen who bought the gimmick or whatever cannot give a good performance whereas we can.

And afterall, gimmicks can't last a lifetime. Whereas, our knowledge of sleights can last for eternity if we make an effort of practise them and fine-tune it.

Anyway, those gimmicks are sold at Toys R Us, so it's supposed to be meant to be toys and for kids.

Worry not. ;)

That's the thing, layman DON'T CARE that the sleight you did took 3 months and blistering fingers to perfect. Or that you invented a really good presentation of an old effect.
To them, the secret IS the magic. For many of them, once they know the secret, nothing else matters.

Yes it's different for us, because we appriciate the finer points of the performance. We notice the patter and the postures and the showmanship and etc etc.
But hasn't it been said that magic should not be performed for magicians but for layman (i.e. dun use difficult sleights just to impressive other magicians but use the most direct and effective methods)? I think it holds here as well.

I'm of the opinion that knowing the secret DEFINITELY spoils it for the layman audience.

Wooh...i like that...very interesting post Makan, Intent and Accessibility.....

It sure sounds like it makes a lot of sense, someone walking into a magic shop with the intention of learning magic seems very much more likely to keep to it than someone who received a magic set from Uncle John who dun know what else to get.

So from that point of view, selling magic sets very accessibly from a major toy store would indeed seem like it's putting magic sets into the hands of people with very little intent.

Very interesting theory Makan, personally I am inclined to say that you are probably right. But you never know, ReDiFiNe could be right about putting it out will only make more people interested in magic. It might very well swing the other way and we might have a great surge of magic hobbists and enthus in singapore and push the overall standard of magic up in sg in the next 10 - 15 years.

But i guess we shall see the result of it very soon in a real life situation. Fantasma has $300,000 worth of magic sets selling out in Toys R Us apparently.
So it might become we meet a heckler every other day, or SMC's membership suddenly grow 3 fold with the average member's age of 12 years old. B)

Either way it goes, it will be an interesting thing to observe, IF you are not depending on any kind of the magic business to survive. B)

Are you offended by these?

Its an artform in itself.. slowly drifting away from magic.. so if you are talking about the two in the same wavelength.. i think its not to be.

If you've heard of De'vo, he is trying to promote the art of Xtreme Card Manipulation, ie.. doing flourish routines rather than magic in the entire act. Its a brand new form of art and if it attracts the younger crowd.. why not? Its a beauty to watch! I am quite the fan of flourishing.. but at the same time i also do magic.. and I find that they are both as fun to do..

I guess its also a lot to do with Bone, Kevin, Sylvester and Cai who always go to magic castle and impress the heck outta magician wannabes and they end up taking up flourishing instead. In my opinion, there arent many Singaporeans that are outgoing enough to make a good magic presentation(look at our arts scene) and flourishing needs none of that and hence it seems like the easier route to take.

But hell..these guys dont know what theyre missing! B)

hahaha.. no, daryl, i'm not offended by that.

just wanted to know why more and more youngsters are interested in flourishes. no offence to anyone, but i dont have much interest in flourishes. maybe a coin roll? that's enough flourishing for me.

Haha..
i guess its cos of the image that the flourishers here give. Flourishing is cool man! it gives you some aura.. just look at Bone.. haha.

havent you ever seen someone do something really sweet and wish you could do that? well.. that happened to me.. and ever since i started.. i couldnt stop. but i havent stopped doing magic either.. in fact i did lots of stuff for the people in china.
i must say card flourishing really helped my handling and confidence for some reason.. in my case flourishing and magic are complementary.

i dont see how anyone could not be attracted to flourishing :P

how old are you by the way?