My intro topic prompted me to start this topic.

Firstly, I have to admit that I paid someone from a shop in beach road to teach me tricks for $25. Some effects even cost $50.

That guy will tell me that the tricks are original After some research, I realised they are not really original, they are just a mere variation (if you can call that variation) . IMO, the variation is too subtle to be a different trick. All those tricks I learnt can be found in dvds and books. Moreover, that guy who taught me has an almighty attitude which turns me off.


Anyway, my question is, why are people doing this? Take something, change it a bit and call it theirs? How would they feel if someone turn the table, took their things, change it and call it theirs? Would they just accept it?

I understand that some newbies who don't have experience will fall into this trap. I hope those who intends to learn from these people will think again. If you do it, you are an accomplice of a thieve.

Please don't tell me that it was because of him I'm into magic. There are plenty of magicians who don't learn from them and yet is still a good magician.

Imagine, one day, the material you've created falls into the hands of these people. They change it slightly and sell it, how would you feel.

I think this is bad in the long run as good materials will not be published because of such practices.

I hope what I wrote make sense.

Of course that is wrong (unethical). Perhaps its just business. But then, (It might offense some people) why do you pay him so much in the first place to learn just ONE effect? (Even you call yourself an idiot.) Common sense (at least for me) will tell me that its not worth that much. Even then you could always do some research b4 u buy. The internet has made this aspect particularly easy.

Of course thats blatantly wrong.

Whatever is done can't be undone. So just move on and don't make the same mistake again. Maybe you can do your part by informing them about SMC and our gatherings.... (shameless advertising)

For us:
- Mingle and learn from true masters like Bob Chua, Enrico, JC Sum etc... and maybe even (if Enrico can do it) Lennart Green or Daryl... FOC!

-Very friendly moderators who will make you feel at home and maybe cheat you at card games... FOC!

-See our MagicBabe Ning... PRICELESS!

:P :lol: :D

Many people (Especially the older ones) will often say this:

"THERE IS NO FREE LUCH IN THIS WORLD!"

Same applies, I believe in Magic or even a new skill that you like to acquire. I believe many people like yourself has been to a magic shop or two, got charged ridiculous amount of money for the simplest effect or trick. (I must admit, I was one too!) But, think about it, when you first saw that particular trick, were you stunned? Were you truly impressed at that particualr time? And most importantly,"Were you prepared to pay XXX amount of money to learn that trick?" Well, at least I know I was. And once I paid the cash, to me, at that particular point, it was money well spent!

If you were a noob at that point in time, everything and anything that particular magician says, you would deem that is the truth. The only reason is that you are still new to Magic. I am also willingly to go and an extra mile that you would even know who or what, "The Professor" was, or "The Charming Cheat". At that point of time, you would be thinking that people like "DAVID COPPERFIELD", "DAVID BLAINE" were the people that invented the stuff that you watch on TV.

Now that you have seen works from various magicians and also the fact that you would have already prgress further into magic, you would know whether a trick is original or not. Whether a trick is really worth $25 or not. Thus, you can decide for yourself. And it is now that when you think back to yourself on the time that you paid $25 for that trick, I would believe that you would wish you could kick yourself so hard on your ass! And, trust me, I wanted to do so myself!

I would end by adding that I would agree with you that it is quite safe to say that even without the help of that particular magician you could still learn or be doing your magic. People like you and me would just be "SWAY" cos we paid it to someone to learn. Other could invest in books, DVD's, or just come to SMC. Treat this as a lesson learnt, and hopefully advise others on the pros and cons.

Keep enjoying your magic SOCGEN!

WOuld be great to see you soon.

Cheers!

dry_gin

I feel in the end, if you created the effect and you never performed it. Then someone else created it also but show it in the TV screen. No matter how much you debate, the concept will be its not created by you.

But it shouldnt affect you in anything. In short, Magic is about yourself, even if someone used your very effect that you created, if he is good, applause to his creativity, and email him, call him, tell him you had this idea a long time ago also. And discuss the possibility to extend the effect. Not debating who came out first and who owned it.

If he is bad, then you can do better, you still in the better stand right. So then, he is selling this effect that say is his, but so what? He did create the effect himself, and even if its not, and he steal it from people and sell it as his own, he disillusionising himself. People that bought the effect will soon realise that this effect is from someone else, distrusting him in the end.

So like what the rest say, magic is too wide, everyone can copy from anyone. But magic in the end, is about yourself, presenting to others, what you wanted magic to be, might not be what others want magic to be. Some go for fame, go for money, go for hobby, but none of them is wrong or right. If they feel they are right, then they are right in their point, we can debate all we wanted, but whether they change, its up to them also.

Yup. You are right. I believe that there are people who are once being cheated to purchase an effect which are claimed to be "original" but it is not original at all.

Well, I was also once fall for it few years back due to some curiousity of learning magic. But now, I have already learnt my mistake and no longer pay that kind of tricks to people who self proclaimed that the tricks are originals and in fact they are not. I believe that we need to give credit to the magicians who are actually the real inventors of the tricks.

Moreover, it is not easy to invent the tricks originally and therefore people should not anyhow quote the price and sell the effect which has been changed.

As unethical as it seems, they need to run a business. It is just one of their sales tactics.

We should get the complete picture before cricticising them. It is their business plight. As much as they are doing something wrong, they need to survive.

What about packet tricks? People sell them. They can mass produce them without any form of permission or credit whatsoever and market it. So what does this mean? This form of selling and marketing would only apply to laymen and casual hobbyist, surely not to a professional who is out for "good" tricks. So what is all the "originality" about?

As a beginner, financially wise, isn't it still more afforable to learn tricks that way instead of buying a DVD to learn?

Can we stop them? Can we deny their way of doing business? Talk about how most of us started. I started from there too. I'm sure many others did too. That is their business, that is how they live.

If we disapprove that, then don't partronise. Talking about it will not help.

Sadly, there are people who weight monetary gains more than the art itself. I've also came across demonstrators who proclaimed that their effects as, "This is AMAZING!", "I've been having sleepless nights trying to come up with this one." and the classic line, "This effect is very UNDERGROUND."

However after the money has been paid, the explanation has been made, DAMN IT, its not that amazing or original at all. End-results? I'm angry and frankly speaking, I don't use most of the teach-ins effects.

Non-substantials proclaims aside, but after realising that the effects we have just paid are actually tricks from old magic books that we can't be bothered to read, and making us think its a one-of-a-kind or an "underground" effect, this really made us consumers look like a fool.

Personally my advice, instead of paying for teach-in tricks, top up a couple of tens and get yourself a book, a dvd or even attend lectures by the established magicians. Its much more worthy that way. (At least when you need to refresh the method of a particular trick, there is a reference you can relate to.) I've made too many impulse purchases from shops that have made me a very regretful man.

Just my 2cents' worth.

How underground can an effect be once it hits a magic shop? Haha.

Haha. Yeah how naive I was back then. But its one of their sales pitch to attract customers.

Yes its unethical or not right but at the end of the day, it is totally impossible to stop thing kind of things from happening. What you can do is to be more aware of who you are dealing with in future.

llamalamer, let me give you my opinion on this matter. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but everyone is entitled to his own opinion including you.

Running a business doesn't mean you can do whatever it takes to make money. Let me give you an example. If a gold shop's business is bad, in order to make ends meet, are they allowed to go and steal other people's gold to sell? :) After all they need to survive.

If such a business is not viable, maybe they should consider changing lines. It is because this is so profitable that they refuse to change.

This doesn't mean anything, just don't support by not buying it. Just like a thieve who steals things, what does it mean to you? What can you do?

If you do the maths,
1 trick = $25
10 tricks = $250

1 dvd with 10 tricks = $65
1 book with 200 tricks = $35

Its very obvious that $25 per trick is not financially wise. Moreover, you can always refer to them from time to time.

If nobody support them, they'll have to stop such practices eventually. Many started from there, many also realised that it is not a good start.

That's right, we should not pratronise them. However, talking about it WILL help promote awareness. Imagine if someone new who wants to learn magic happened to read about this thread, what would they choose? To buy a dvd/ book or to pay $25 to learn a trick?

I try to respect magicians with great skills but if the magician don't respect the art, I don't think they deserve the respect even if they are highly skilled.

Because of the trend the shops started, there are so many so called magicians who are following this step. Look at the people who try and teach newbies for a fee. You can find them on the net. You can even find these people in Bugis area selling pirated dvds and teaching tricks for a fee.

I'm sure many will feel that this is very unhealthy for the art. Think about it.

There is nothing wrong in teaching a trick for 25 dollars.

You are essentially paying for the effect and the time cost in him taking the time to explain and teach you the effect. You are also paying for the opportunity to ask questions that you normally would not have the chance. Many times, magical literature can be rather difficult to read or even on dvds, the instructions often assume that you are competent in certain sleights and leave you struggling.

More importantly, if you have a teacher, you can perform the trick for him after you've practised it sufficiently and he can offer you further tips to improve your own performance.

However, with that said, there are a set of ethics in teaching that should be adhered to.

Proper acknowledgement for effects taught should be made. And the teaching should be comprehensive enough so that the student can perform it well. It is desirable if a genuine bond can be fostered between teacher and student so that the relation is more than just a monetary exchange.

As I've not paid to learn tricks at the place you mentioned before, I cannot comment on the quality of teaching. However, I get the sense that you feel that you have been ripped off. I suppose that this should serve as a lesson that it's important to make careful considerations and research on what you are paying for before you buy it.

If its an original effect, I will not mind paying and learn it from the creator. But if the tricks are ripped off from books and dvds, shouldn't he introduce the video or book to his customers instead? I would be impressed by that honesty act and will definitely consider to patronise him more. It all boils down to the honesty and ethics.

Come on, I believe our textbooks are more "difficult to read" than the usual magic publications. Reading a so-called "difficult to read" magic book a couple of times more will make learning easier. Pardon me for being frank but I felt those who say its difficult to learn from a book is either lazy or just want an easier way to learn it. (Thus the dvds and teach-ins).

If one needs advise on their performance, I think the demonstrator will be more than willing to give you a couple of tips. If he only teaches or pay more attention to you because you are always buying, then they are choosing their customers and these shops should be replaced by more Topman retails instead.

Again, just my 2cents' worth.

Ha, well said bigbadwolf!

Anyway, how do you think the old timers learn their skill? By paying $25 for a trick? It may not be easier by learning from a shop but it is definetly good if you have a personal mentor.

Personal mentor = not a person who charge $25 per trick or even $50 per trick if you're a newbie. Those who got ripped at $50 will understand what I mean. Just becareful on how you part your money and to whom. Don't make the same mistake like many of us by supporting such people.

Bigbadwolf, I think it isn't right to say that people who say that books are difficult to read are either lazy or want an easier way to learn it.

The fact is that books are more difficult to learn from than in DVDs. Just because one makes such a statement doesn't mean he is lazy or he is seeking an easier way to learn magic. It is a true statement. I can acknowledge that dvds are easier to learn from but still prefer books because they are more comprehensive and detailed.

Socgen, you are right, a personal mentor shouldn't be someone who just teaches a trick for a price. It should be more than that and a personal mentor should be giving lessons and not just a trick for money.

I think that teaching tricks that are from books or dvds is alright as long as they are acknowledged. Justin Miller is currently offering personal lessons on DVD for about 50 USD, teaching students what they request for that can range from cards, coins, mentalism, etc. I doubt that what he will be teaching will be entirely original. Does that mean what he is doing is inethical?

Here's quoting JC Sum from another thread which i find applies rather well to this issue.

Reference: http://forums.singaporemagiccircle.com/ind...opic=5980&st=30

Well, a very simillar thing happened in a local magic shop not long. I was with my friend, who wanted to learn magic. So i brought him along to the shop, left him at the counter and started chatting with zzomaizz who was also there. A while later, i joined my friend who was at the counter and had paid $25 for a simple variation of a 4 aces production trick. i was like "?!! $25?" It ultilises a move that is created by Bill Simon(according to ammar's dvds).

So i kinda thought bout it. If a percentile of the $25 had gone to Bill Simon for the use of his move, then it would be rather fair, wouldn't it? Cos he did create that move that made this variation possible. Or if the person had sought permission from Bill Simon to market an effect using his move beforehand.

However, i believe Bill Simon had not received any money or anything. So is this right? And i do not think he actually told my friend the name of the move or the creator of the move. :mellow:

Aaron

If you want free lunch, go to a temple.

To be fair to all parties, if you are a willing to pay for the service, it is a transaction. If you know its not worth that much, don't go back to that shop again. It is just as simple as that.

I charge a fee for teaching magic tricks, whether its original or not. Out of courtesy, I will always give credits to the creator or run a short history of what I know. Who is so knowledgeable to know as to whether a certain trick is original or not.

If a magician were to teach for free, he will be a very very busy person. Santa comes once a year and may give you one present if you a lucky.

When you are young, you have no worry about bringing money home cause you have free food and lodging provided by your parents. So we must face the reality of life and need to live.

Nothing is free in this world.

Uncle Bob

I agreed with Uncle Bob, there no free lunch. All these are survival in the market. You think magic shops can survive just by selling items. Do you know they still have rental to pay for their shops every month. If they don't come out with additional things to do other than selling stuffs. They may not survive for long. As long as there are willing buyers to pay for it why worry. I know a lot of you are very young, not thinking the perpective of a business man. Once you grow older you will realise this is a reality world. Everything you talk about is $$.

xtremer, think about it. If a business is not viable, its either you change line or you do something legal, not by stealing.

Just like a desperate poor man who is out of job, he goes robbing, is it right?

You are right everything is money, this includes the inventor who came out with effects that are blatantly used by others for a profit.

How would you feel if you came out with something and realised that someone else has already capitalise on it by teaching it for $25?

Are you encouraging the young, not thinking the perspective of a business man to support thieves? The young should know that nothing is free, supporting thieves are wrong too. They should be educated and decide what is wrong and what is right.

At the end of the day, we can't stop all these from happening, your conscience will tell you what's right or wrong. Just hope that you are not clever enough to come up with original effects and get stolen by someone else.

socgen,

Seriously, I'm now wondering if your Windows XP is an original or pirated copy.

If you know what I mean.

Kenneth

PS. Replace "effect" with "software" and "teaching" with "selling the copied disc to you"

If you can stop piracy, you can stop this.

Sorry, all my stuffs are original. Including soft-wares.

I have never say I wanted to stop all these, not even the government can totally stop piracy.

Just wanted to let people know what's right or wrong.

I also know that some ex magic demonstrator copied dvds into their lap top. If you know what I mean.

Oh.. I'm impressed.

Well, like what many people said, this issue has been raised many times before. In forums and out of forums.

As much as there are ethics, one must know that in the business world, survival is the key. I'm afraid this issue cannot be discussed in the magic point of view but rather in the business point of view.

If they are doing this for survival, let them be. How much can we help by flaming the issue up? I said it before: If you disapprove it, don't partronise it.

Selling effects for 25++ dollars is way out of your (or rather OUR) control. People prefer hands-on teaching rather than watching a video or reading a book. This is the crowd demand, and as shopowners, their job is to meet the demand. They have done it rather well and they are still being patronised by walk-in customers. The power of choice still comes down to us as consumers. I'm going to say this again:

If you disapprove of it, don't patronise it.

So much of letting people know what's right and wrong, but in the end, others will be still going for it. I personally too have my reserves on such a way of teaching magic, but if you think like a business person, to earn money for survival, this is the way to go. So what if it is wrong? They are meeting a demand.

I have never been a demonstator before so I might be able to understand fully what agenda they're trying to achieve. But after all, they're doing well. Why stop it? They are meeting a demand.

If one really wants to learn the finest and best effects around, one will eventually turn to the right sources for doing so.

Back to reading our books and watching our videos for more good effects. Let's not watse time talking (or educating) about such issues. Practice more and get better

Kenneth Yeo JC aka "llamalamer". (If you ever confused me with a demonstrator named Kenneth...)

You have your view, I have mine. I can't force you, neither can you force me.

At least some people reading this can decide if its wrong or right. At least they know that there are other sources besides learning from thieves. I'm sure some people will agree with you and I'm sure more people will agree with me.

I don't patronise these shops.

Haha. Ok. I totally respect that.

I first would like to apologize if I have offended anyone during all these postings about this topic. Reason being that instead of everyone flaming altogether, it would be fair (and perhaps, nice) to present the other side of the coin. Of course, as of all people, I might have typed in something out of frustration and created unpleasant moments.

Not that I think that teach-ins are right. They are wrong in a certain way. I agree with you with your points and argument, but I somehow felt that somethings were kind of, overbroad. Therefore I decided to chip in a few things.

Personally, just to let you all know, I don't patronise them too. I get my effects mostly from texts. But I started out the 25++ dollar way. And that is why I said:

Because I am one of them. I'm sure many other magic lovers will do too.

No hard feelings, and I bid the same to you.

Kenneth

I've read this thread with interest and thought I'd chip in.

Yes, there are different perspectives to the issue but to me personally, it is black and white and not grey.

Selling tricks that are not yours without the knowledge of the buyer is clear cut wrong. It is not a magic issue, it is an ethical issue. Raising the fact that others do it or it has been done to survive as a business etc does not in any way change the fact that it is wrong. The reasons sited are just self-justifications of a wrong act with the hope that it a permissible reason... it is not.

To meet market demand is not a valid reason to engage in unethical practice... it is a merely a dishonest one. If you need to resort to unethical practise to 'pay the bills', either this business is not for you or business in general is not for you.

The responses posted by some just gives others insight on their character and moral fiber... it unfortunately does not justify the actions of such practice.

I'm 100% with Socgen on this one.

Just telling it as it is....

J C

A music teacher teaching students with somebody music score is also unethical and wrong?

To me there is no right or wrong. It is up to each individual to interpret.

Doing a magic routine using someone's plot and with some modification, you call it your own.

Basically, to discuss on this tropic can never end. Always remember we are no saints. Most people never do what they preach.

Uncle Bob

That is not exactly what I said...

Reference:

"Selling tricks that are not yours without the knowledge of the buyer is clear cut wrong. "

As well as what I expounded in my other post regarding the Macdonald's SMS magic service.

To elaborate so as to not have any miscommunication:

There must also be an acceptance of what is considered public domain. While all art forms including magic are creative expressions, magic has one up, in terms of intellectual property, that other arts do not have and that is magical method. And it is usually this that a person is buying.

Thus, it is up to the teacher/ seller to do due dilligence to know what is public domain before selling/ teaching. If one is not acknoweldgeable enough, then maybe one should not be teaching/ selling just yet.

The ideal ethical situation (for me) would be for the person in the know to refer the buyer/ student to the correct/ original source of an effect... and not teach the effect that is not in public domain. But, I know this is idealistic...

While it is impossible to go case by case of what is ethical and what is not, our moral compass should guide us in what is acceptable practice. The difference will be the degree different people are willing to be flexible. It is easy to find loopholes... if you look hard enough, you will find it. If you look for reasons to justify actions, you will find it.

Some say stealing 10 cents is ok but $10,000 is not. Some say both are wrong cause it is still stealing... its up to the individual to decide how flexible they want to be...

Most people do not practice what they preach, but that does not mean the rest of us should follow suit. I guess, what I'm saying is, do justice to the art by not profiting unethically to the best of your ability.

Peace,

J C

My post is kinda out of point, but this example is not really accurate, since to teach somebody with a music score, the student should have bought the score. And so he would have the ethical right to play it/learn it.

The music teacher is profiting by guiding the student along to learn what he has bought. In the case of magic, this would be like somebody buying a DVD/book, and then paying someone else to help them along with learning the moves inside it.

But I get what you mean, and mostly agree with it.

Btw, the Windows XP on my com is original. :D

Same here, mine's bundled with my laptop... :P

Is it me or do i feel that the tension here is getting heated up? Anyway back to the topic, i do feel that this is something very subjective, it all lies with the mentality of us, obviously as you can see from all the posts, some of us agree and some of us disagree so if we continue going on like that, i do not see it going anywhere. To end my post, i think we should all just remember what Jc Sum and the plenty of you guys have been trying to say which is, to do justice to the art.

Hmm, didn't expect this to get out of hand :P . Well all these are individuals point of view. Right or wrong it not easy to judge. It on perpective point of view. I personally won't pay 25 for trick which i can get off the shelves and learn them myself if the cost is the same. It still boils down to if you think it wrong then don't pay for it. If the demonstrator base on memory and teaches them out not duplicating or copywriting any materials, I don't see a point of enthical in this way. The same goes to a teacher who read a lots and imparts to the student. In the case it like a student paying the teacher to learn.
I must make it clear I am not supportive or against it. I just stand in a neutral point of view to judge on this. Hope this does not offend anyone here. My apologies. :P

Just to add on, selling tricks without acknowledgement and permission can possibly go beyond ethics and be illegal as well.

If the trick is a marketted effect, the material cannot be sold and taught unless the original trick is bought by the student as well. Selling a marketted trick is illegal and legal action can be taken. That's why the likes of vid-sharing websites like Youtube have to remove exposure videos of Ellusionist products, yet, do not remove exposure videos of public domain material (eg. material from Expert at the Card Table)

The reason why Ellusionist video is illegal on youtube is because its is like pirated videos and DVD, where the content is duplicated. Another example, if you have a magic e-book, or scan a book then post on the internet for free or a minimal sum, then it is illegal. But if you were to write out the entire thing in your own way, then post it somewhere for a fee, then I don't think that it is illegal. So exposure videos on youtube that are self made is not illegal. This is my understanding on the copyright laws on magic literature and secrets.

...But that's ripping people off, because nothing was truly invented by you & yet, you're getting monetary gains :o
It's just unethical, blatant plagiarism!!!

pla·gia·rism (plā'jə-rĭz'əm)
Using ideas, plots, text and other intellectual property
developed by someone else while claiming it is your original work.

If you're unfamiliar about art/ literary theft, read this!

Essentially... If you're merely just rephrasing/ restructuring the content but it's still essentially the same thing, this doesn't make your 'creation' original. Well, inspired by the original maybe, but definitely not a rightful work that is 'new'. It's not a form of flattery also because the creators starve due to the selfish actions of people who just rip them off :(

My 2 cents...
ning

Yea, but I am talking about legal matters, in the sense that the law do not give much protection to magical secrets. If you read something from a magic book and spread the secrets among your friends, I don't think you infringe any copyright law. But if you photocopy the entire book and distribute it among your friends, then it does. Again this is just from what I read, so it might be inaccurate. But if you think about it, its pretty hard to use the law or court to protect such things, even if it is possible, its not the best way.

Now I just want to be clear...
Was SocGen upset about the fact that he was "ripped-off" for $25-a-trick which he could have found on Dvds? Or was he upset over the fact that some people took others' ideas, modified it and pass it on as theirs?

I see some of us here addressing the former while some are on the latter.

The former is purely a supply-and-demand issue .
In this free economy, nobody can force you to buy anything. If you are willing to pay for what they charge, then who can you blame? And since you have paid and got something out of it, then maybe you should stop complaining about it. If you are not willing to pay, you can always choose not to learn.
I started learning from local shops too, paying $25 too. Though I now realize I could have learn it cheaper, I never really complain because I was the willing-party.

The latter is an ethical issue.
As with most ethical issue, there is seldom a 100% right or 100% wrong answer. It all depends on your own ethical limits. If you think it's wrong, just don't do it yourself. It is very difficult to expect the same standard from everybody.
For myself, I've bought both original as well as pirated Cds (or cheap China version Cds). I don't want to pretend that I'm that moral and ethical, it's just a fact of life.

muscleaxl i like your frankness. I suppose not many people here will dare to speak up the way u do. I wonder how many people here will dare to say everything they used are all originals.
Fruits for thought, did u people buy a pirated branded bag or shirt before
? Are all your VCD/DVD shows all originals? Are all the software you used on your computer originals? There are so many illustrations out there. People will do copycat marketing, utimately it will be we consumers morally whether to support them. If we don't support them, they sure will be out of the market soon or later. But sad to say the temptation is too great for many to resist.
Just an example, you need this software badly for your computer. To get a original you pay 1k plus for it. But at merely $10-$15 bucks you know you can get the software. What will you do?
I can tell you i know people who are so rich that I was surprised they still buy pirated stuffs.
I don't think we human are so angels who can self proclaim to be morally upright.
I am sorry if i am too straight. I just speaking from the bottom of what i think.
I do agreed to most of you having your own perpective of this. muscleaxl had said, there no one to force you to do it. It all lie down to yourself. You don't do it doesn't mean you are able to prevent people from doing it.

Icy, the videos of ellusionist products (and other popular effects from other companies) on vid-sharing sites were not copied off the ellusionist dvds. Rather, they are mostly all "teaching" videos with the person exposing the method in the marketted effect. That is illegal as well.

In fact, Ellusionist also sought to remove poorly performed marketted effects off youtube because those performance videos were so poorly done that they bordered upon exposure.

Extremer, you are right. We are not perfect and alot of us would have done things that are illegal and inethically wrong at one time or another. But I think it's never too late to realise that something that we are doing could be wrong and make a change.

For the sake of our art, let us make the change and support magic the way it should be done.