Hi guys,

I have focused mainly on card effects so far. Have performed for my relatives, friends and strangers and gotten bad as well as great reactions from them. Basically it's all good. However i have not had the guts to perform for this good friend of mine (partly because i'm still new and have much to learn but i digress).

Why you may ask?

Because i identify him as a potential heckler and basically, a 'non-believer' of magic. Another issue is, this good friend of mine has an ego :) He wants to be the know-it-all when interacting in a group and deep deep down inside me, i know if i started to perform and perform WELL in a group with him in it, i'm confident that i can and WILL steal his 'thunder' (even though that is not my intention but a person with a huge ego will think otherwise, yes my fellow magic friends? )and when that time comes, i will have to face a tough-customer/ heckler scenario.

I meet this good friend everyday and i asked him today what he thought about magic and stuff (he knows about my hobby). He felt that:
(1) i should not fool people
(2) He does not like card magic as he felt that these 'tricks' often involve P***ing and 'heavy set-up' to achieve the effect. (i quote him) He also said he likes to see things levitate but i think he will only heckle the performer, i know my friend too well. :angry:

So the bottomline is i humbly ask all you kind and experienced folks:
(1) Should i improve upon my current repertoire of card effects and work on presentations etc OR
(2) Learn and perform non-card effects for this friend of mine

OK guys i know most of you will say do both hahahaha! However i would like to hear some advice from and suggestions from you guys. Thanks in advance

PS: I perform and improvise card effects from braue's RRTCM, stigmata, ACR, biddle trick, stuff that i picked up on those cool SMC gatherings :lol: and some jay sankey mentalist stuff. I tried these and am able to get great reactions.

Don't perform is also an option. No one says you must perform for him also.

If you think he is unsafe to perform to, don't do it even if you think you are good enough, because you never know what he will do to you also.

hey sean.

Welcome to the fraternity. It looks like you do really lack some experience and that is perfectly alright. It will come with time and practice (both alone and while performing). I think there are two solutions to this "problem", you seem to only ask advice for one of them but i feel it might be important for you to know both.

The first one is from the perspective of a magician. You have a friend you need to win over. You present two solutions to the problem and I think both although valid are not "holistic". The advantage of (1) is that it is way easier to learn some card effect that is impromptu or looks impromptu because you already have the foundation. Furthermore, this is your passion and is his point of contention so the most direct way of addressing this would be to prove that the two stereotypes he has are wrong. The second one may be more difficult unless you get one of those gimmicks but the possible problem is that since your experience is still new, your friend may still have the "i've been tricked" attitude.

Which brings me to a related point. How are you presenting your magic? What is the purpose? If you do not have a real purpose in performing, find one. It maybe something inspirational, something out-of-this-worldly funny (like see, even my cards misbehave) look for something and think of a way to convey that message so people dont focus on the "fooling" part.

The second point which I was mentioning at the beginning, is about the role magic plays in your life. Are you a part of magic or is magic a part of you? How big a role does magic play in your socialising? Do you need magic to be an "alcohol" to help you socialise? If you do, this might be an issue you have to live with or perhaps if magic is something really cool you have on your resume but you are still a good conversationalist and friend perhaps your friend may not think of it as such a big deal.

I can't tell you really which of these routes to follow, you'll have to decide on your own. In fact the points I mentioned run the risk of not being 100% relevant but I simply wanted to share because I too faced a similar problem. I hope you found the advice useful. Remember that there are things in magic that you can only learn through years of experience so you have to be patient. And like all good magicians, if something screws up make it look like it didnt =P

Cheers
csjoshi

Hi Larry thanks for your input. As magicians we have the power to know when to or not to perform.

On a side not, i have also not performed for other people in his presence. (ie. our mutual friends when we go out in a group). I find this very stifling because as long as this friend of mine is around, it most definitely is a 'no-magic' social gathering.

I always tell myself that magic is just one way to entertain and one can also interact without using magic (crack jokes, talk about sports etc etc) but if i don't perform, how can i improve? This notion is ALWAYS at the back of my head whenever i meet new people.

hi csjoshi thanks for your great ideas! I appreciate it!

What prompted me to post this topic was that on sunday, had lunch with my usual group of friends and one of them brought his colleague. To quote csjoshi, i didn't have a real purpose to perform, there was this quiet moment among the group after the meal and my friend (who's a great spec and gave me good reactions too!) requested me to perform "show her leh, show her leh". So i performed for her and got great reactions. I was on a high basically! as i felt this was one of my best performances and one of the best reactions from a spec so far.

I felt all the hard work, practice and mumbling to myself in front of a mirror is worth it for such performances. I was really really happy on sunday but still i know i'm not ready to perform or 'win over' my tough-cookie friend. I know i have a long long way to go and much much much more to learn.

Actually i really don't know if i should 'win him over'. I feel that if, as a performer, i am too pushy, i will appear as a 'challenger' which defeats the purpose of magic.

If there's an analogy for this, it would be: Can you convert a Christian to be a Buddhist or vice versa. I hope i do not offend anyone with this lame analogy but i believe this is my friend's stand towards magic in general.

I am glad to see the passion and understanding of magic - that it ought not be challenging.

It is not a problem of card magic or magic, it is probably an inherent problem in life - that some people will simply not be pleased by whatever you do. So in response to your question as to whether you should bother to 'win him over', I say nay.

As for some other recommendations for the other issues you raised, the most important things for you now is to perfect what you have (technically and presentation-wise), and get acquainted with other forms of closeup magic (not for your friend, but for your magic life).

Sean, I think if your friend is not interested in magic, then there's no point in performing for him at all. I don't think that he'll ask you to perform for him either. Don't give him what he doesn't want.

Here's an idea: let's say that you're with a group of friends and he is around. A few of your friends request for you to perform magic, so long as it's a majority request, go ahead and perform. If he's a good friend, there's no reason why he should try to spoil your limelight.

Engage those who want to experience the magic and let your friend be a spectator at the side. If you involve him, he might just start heckling you and make things difficult, so don't. See how the session turns out, hopefully, your good friend will make a good "side" spectator. If so, you can allay your concerns and perform freely when he's present.

Gordon and Jlow, thanks for your suggestions.

Actually Jlow, you hit the nail spot on. I DID perform for a friend in his presence (the 3 of us are good friends). This friend of mine requested for me to show him a trick because i gave a good one performance previously, not because he want to find out the trick. It was positive. However my tough cookie friend is around and i said no.

"come on show la show la" i said no again and again but it became very extreme i know it's hard to believe it but he drove us all to a 7-eleven and bought a deck of aladdins! i was like what the hell did i get myself into.

I eventually gave in and did stigmata (not to my non-believer friend, he was just watching by the side). My friend was devastated! Great reaction from him BUT my non-believer friend started to throw 'call water'.
"aiyah i think sean knew what card it was from the start la. There must be a way he knew it. " etc etc etc You guys should know how tough-cookies work.

From a layman perspective, he wanted to dissect the effect and find a logical reasoning for it BUT from a performer's and audience's perspective, he diminished or should i say, stole the miracle moment away from my friend who was clearly astonished by the effect. Me? i just stood and kept quiet.

Thinking back, i think i should respect his reaction too. Some folks are just more 'intellectual' or 'logical' than others and i cannot stop them from having such skepticisms.

i don't know if you can call him a good 'side spectator' after that incident but i felt that if i was more experienced and am able to carry on or build up to a full blown routine, i could have won over my friend there and then outside 7-11. I stopped at one trick. I am not good enough.

I doubt your friend is deliberately making things difficult for you.
Just that some people are more logic orientated and tend to view magic as a puzzle to be solved.
Because magic is not really mainstream entertainment, people sometimes dunno the "socially acceptable" way on how they should react to a magic trick.
Example would be watching a movie in a cinema. People know they are not supposed to speculate out loud who is the mystery killer even if they think they know. Chances are, he probably think he is just contributing to the groups effort to "solve the mystery".

If you feel the need to, just casually say that you are just doing this for their entertainment, not really giving them a puzzle to solve so they don't really have to waste their brain cells on solving it.
Else just don't perform lor. Friends are usually tough spectators. Especially the close ones.

Hey Sean, don't feel that you're not good enough. It takes alot of guts to perform when you know that there's this heckler hanging around you, and yet, you managed to astonish your friend. Kudos to you!

There'll always be that tough cookie somewhere who will come up with all sort of explanations (and sometimes awfully ridiculous ones) to try and spoil your effect. But there's lots of laymen that won't, so perform for them.

The next time your friend's in your presence and someone asks you to perform, tell him/her firmly that'll you'll do it another time, no matter how much they insist. Let their curiosity and interest about your magic build up, when the time is ripe, perform just one effect to blow their socks off and keep them talking about you.

Yes Sean, just don't care about what others affect you. You are to entertain them and leave them a good impression on magic art. There are lots of different kinds of audience in the world. Therefore, you need to get prepare that this will happen to you at any point of time. Focus on your nice presenation and joke around with them. Trust me, they will like it very much. :)

From my opnion, just do an outstanding trick that leaves a great impression on you. I believe that although your friend tries to heckle you each time, he will still have a sense of curiosity of how this trick works. This is normal human behaviour.

Cheers
Invisible

Hi Sean,

Educate your audience before performing, it'll leave you one steps ahead of the hacker and implant the idea of "shut up if you know how it's done". If you don't understand what I mean you can send me a pm to arrange a meet up with me, I'll explain to you in greater details.

Good job facing your friend!

-Alan-

hi guys thanks for all the replies. Even SMC founder replied to my thread, i'm honoured to get tips from you experienced folks. I won't be deterred by tough nuts like my friend but just hope to perform more to gain experience to know more dos and don'ts.

Alan thanks for your offer, i don't think i deserve such 1 to 1 tutoring yet! I may just be a waste of your time :D Perhaps you can point me in the right direction on what books or materials that i can pick up to learn more about implanting the idea of "shut up if you know how it's done" and i would be most thankful already.

Cheers and thanks for all the positive suggestion i truly appreciate it!

Hi Sean,

Experience cannot be gain by reading books, there is no short-cut. Anyway I'm a full time busker so most of the time I'll be free, if you're willing to learn I'll be willing to teach, so why is time wasted?

Hope to see you in the next meeting if I can make it. ^^

-Alan-

This is a very good topic. I faced this problem when I was just starting.

It sounded to me that you only have the problem with this particular friend of yours. My guess is that you've no problems performing to others right? If that's the case, you are lucky, I had my whole bunch of army friends who love to heckle me.

Anyway, here are my " 2 million dollars" worth of opinions:

1. Just don't perform for him. YOur magic "career" doesn't hinge on his approval.

2. If "die, die" must perform with him around, choose self-working effects.

3. Also, you need to let him know you respect your art. You need to let him know that it's a performing art like singing, acting or dancing. I don't suppose he'll get up half-way in a dance act, go up the stage and heckle the dancers right? So you need to get this point across.

4. I think (I may be wrong), your friend is insecured from anyone who takes the limelight from him. Maybe you can just give him attention when you perform, so he won't feel so "left out".

Ya, if you stay near AMK, we can meet Multi-Talent together, he stays near me anyway. He have whole loads of good tips on audience management!

Hello there.

As has been said by previous posters, I believe the problem lies with your friend. I have a friend with a very logical mind, who is able to occasionally works out what I do. However, she does not go around yelling or heckling when I perform. She just keeps quiet.

I see no reason why someone would heckle other than the fact that he is personally insecure and wants to show off. Hence, I think there are three options.

1. When your friends in a group ask you to perform and he is there, say that you will not perform because he spoils it every time you try to perform. They will then pressure him to shut up and let them enjoy it.

2. During my few performances, occasionally I will meet a heckler or two but something else happened. Their friends, enjoying my performance, asked them to shut up. I didn't have to do a single thing. I am most grateful when that happens.

3. Since he is your friend, talk to him in private about it. Ask him why does he heckle. Politely request for him to be considerate. Even though he does not enjoy watching you perform, it doesn't mean that he has to spoil it for everyone else.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I don't mind joining axl and multi talented for the audience management discussion, it will definitely be a fruitful trip. I also have some questions about the "test" u are talking about. :off:

I think it depends on how much u want to push urself in terms of magic.

If u want to just perform casually then u don't have to worry about hecklers, just don't perform with them around and perform when u're comfy around the people u wanna perform too.


if u're gonna be performing more seriously to semi pro / pro level , then learn to deal with hecklers and learn how to handle and control them. when done right they can even help elevate ur magic to another level to ur spectators as u have proven to them that u can handle even the toughest of cookies.

i'll give u an example of what happened to me over the week:

I was at Zouk on wed night ( ladies night ) and was at the bar when the bartender asked if anyone could put a coin thru 2 inverted glasses of filled water without letting the water leak out.

i went up and took the challenge and kinda flopped , but then i told the bartender that i could put a coin thru the glass from the bottom, i then did infusion and the muscle pass ending of DG's quarters routine.

now this guy was trying to bust me pretty hard so he was thinking of how it could be done and etc etc and was trying to expose me and got it right.

I proceeded to do a flash production of a fork and did liquid metal and this guy was mocking me for bringing me a fork to a club by asking me what else did i bring in my trunk

but the idea is not to get fazed by it

by the end of my liquid metal routine he asked to see if he could get the corkscrew bend out and couldn't so he was floored and actually asked if he could keep the fork to show his boss.

those who study psychology will know about evolution theory and the alpha male.Now it was pretty obvious to me that this guy was trying to out-alpha me and as such i have devised a way to deal with them.U basically have to show them a trick that might not be too hard but will be angle proof and almost impossible to figure out. Just one that they can't and they will slightly start to back off u.And use them in ur performances ( but not on CARD TRICKS cos they'll mess up ur pack of cards), that will their hands will be occupied , e.g CMH with spectator or DG's unlink from rubber made which makes them nervous as they're gonna be part of the "show"

now they're gonna ask u to repeat the effect if they can't figure it out so go ahead keep doing it for them till they crack.

I got this bartender to serve me 2 free drinks of barcardi lime and he told me to come find him the next time i went to zouk.

^_^

main thing is to always keep cool and look in total control and to just brush aside all the lewd and smirky comments they'll shoot at u. in the end they'll look bad themselves because they're trying too hard to make u look bad and it makes them look like assholes to the rest of the more "open minded " audience.


regards
Roland
PS: this has been field tested and proven.

Thanks to all who replied. Appreciate all the comments.

Roland hats off *salute*. Personally i think i am not at your level both in terms of skill level and material/ routining. I feel besides audience management, one needs to have well-oiled routines perfected to the nth degree. My point was you were able to move forward, unfazed at the guy's mocking because you most probably had the liquid metal routine down. It's like clockwork right? :D

When that guy tried to mock you after the fork production, did you just kept quiet and proceeded with your liquid metal or did you actually converse with him, eye contact, body language where you are facing him etc. It would be cool to know. Thanks! :D

yes , that 's true. I have gone thru about 150 plus forks for liquid metal ( i just do the one fork routine , no double fork ) and perform it at least 5 times a week so once i start liquid metal i'm on auto pilot mode. i know exactly what to do , who to find and when to do the misdirection and the moves.

this is the same for the ring and rubberband routine i do .

i suggest u find a routine that u can do repeatedly and not get caught out. It really irks and befuddles hecklers when they cannot figure out how the trick is done even though like in my case the bartender was shining down a torchlight as i was doing the "pinnacle" bit of the ring and rubberband routine.They will either get more frustrated which makes them look like complete tools to the rest or they will start to tone down and be better audiences.

or my other suggestion would be to have a killer ending so that even if u have fuck ups during ur routine it dones't play out too bad as ur audience will be blown away at the end

my example of this would be my cigarette routine that is heavily sleight based. it is pretty angly and sometimes my sleights aren't perfect and i do flash quite a bit , but if i do my torn and restored phase ( if i have a dupe ciggy ) which isnt' that hard to do but impresses laymen easily it gets the audience amazement level back up again despite ur fuck ups and i end the routine by lighting up the cigarette with my fire wallet which is guaranteed to bring the house down. <-- i have gotten the most reactions from that .

Also try to stick away from IT work when performing for the down and gritty. I love my loops but i hardly use them when it comes to dealing with the harder crowds as IT requires very skilled work and also makes u extra nervous. Also if the thread breaks u're pretty much SCREWED.

With the fork production , after he mocked me i just went up to him and said: "U laugh , but just watch , i guarantee u won't regret it . "


Regards

Roland

Honestly, yes what most of you guys have said, i agree.

But heres my 2 cents worth.

~respect them and they WILL respect you

~state your bounderies, dont challenge your audience tell people what you can or cannot do (dont tell people you can float them instantly or you can topit a hamburger out of madonals)

~always remain as humble as possible, be a true entertainer, not a magic
person

~Have fun, enjoy yourself as much as you want the audience too

~be yourself

~really practise you material, be it self working super duper sleight of hand
every one needs to prastice.

~dont leave anyone out in the trick, involve everyone (even your enemies)
people will appriciate and respect your effort be it that you screw up or not.


Good luck, just my 2 cents! =D

Hey sean.

I would like to emphasise the quote. If you ever come across this opportunity, really milk it for what its worth, your popularity might even instill respect in your heckler friend.

CSJ

^ while i agree with the above to a certain extent ....

Pambudi also taught me something important , and that is...a magician must be prepared 24/7 . he must be able to do perform at any instance.

hi guys happy national day :D

Its seems that Roland and csjoshi have opposite views.

Sorry to all who feel that i'm 'blogging' about my magic experiences but i have no where to 'let off steam'. haha Please forgive and bear with me.

So here is my latest experience. To summarize: i should have seen csjoshi's latest post! I just returned from a BBQ at a friend's place (the same guy who bought the deck of cards from 7-11 and forced me to perform, to those who are following this thread)and of course my tough cookie friend was there too!

Of course at the back of my head i was like: ok good chance to perform! However i also told myself to hold on.... to check and see who are the other people present and see if it's even appropriate to do magic.

So the BBQ went on and there was about 9 people. Everyone was interacting well, add to the fact that i didn't bring my deck (ok ok i'm prepared for the incoming flames of "why didn't you bring your bikes all the time!!!!!" BBQ mah!? Hand oily don't want to destroy the cards! ) i thought it was still great to just talk and eat. Besides the guys including me played basketball and it was great fun, even without magic.

As the evening winded down, and everyone was just sitting around and chilling out, my friend asked to show all of us magic. i turned him down but everyone wanted to 'see something'. So i gave in under pressure!! (sorry csjoshi!!). I did 3 effects

1-Do as i do
2-jay sankey's 3-card prediction
3-an improvised k** c**d location effect

Unfortunately, i fumbled at my last (and ashamed to say, one of my hardest hitting effect....not anymore :( ) I think under the poor lighting i saw the wrong k** c**d. bad bad bad i hate myself. Further more i did not get as strong a reaction as i expected from my first 2 effects when compared to my past experiences. My friends, even though a bit impressed, their reaction was lukewarm at best. It also didn't help that among them, there was one new friend who has seen the ACR and invisible deck effect before.

When doing 3-card prediction, he said, in a non-offensive manner. something like 'hmm i know the structure of how this works'. I said jokingly 'hey show us your version. I'm new to this so i would like to see how others do it too'. This worked and he backed off :D

However i have to stress that there was no 'heckling' from my tough cookie friend as he just sat there and watch (i think he was tired from basketball lol). So at the end of the day, the moral of the story is: EITHER be prepared 24/7 to do magic OR don't do it at all even under the most extreme circumstances!

Thanks for reading. I'm going to practice my bi**le trick 50 times before i sleep now. Good night!

PS: i did sankey's 3-card prediction the night BEFORE to my mum and it blew her away. Fantastic effect! I did this effect to a GUY friend today + under the uncomfortable situation, the reaction was below par. Mentalism is great for females. Just my 2 cents.

Hi, me and Cjoshi and Jlowhy actually do not have opposing views


Personally ,i agree with what they are saying whether u are a casual performer or professional. I do the same , only difference is that i do not show my best tricks or effects until the time is absolutely right.

on an average day , just prepare one or 2 things that ur'e always set to go. e.g pencil/ciggy manipulation / rubber bands . That should be enough or a simple mentalist effect with 4 cards or coin tricks / musclepass


then when u're ready , hit them hard when the situation is for the taking


what pambudi suggested i guess applies to alot of the newer magicians that only know card stuff, therefore when placed in a situation without cards they are lost when asked to perform. Don't be over dependant on ur props if not ur audience will also feel : Are u the magician or are ur props the things that make u a magician ?

I've seen a lot of magicians that just bring racks of props and show tricks till the point that it almost looks like a magic demostratation....and i think that's wrong personally.

You can always choose not to perform, afterall, they are not paying. As what Pam use to say, did you ever seen anyone asking David Beckam to kick a ball since everyone knows he as a footballer?

I seriously beg to differ.

^ u can't compare with david beckham because everyone sees him kicking on television so there's no need to ask him to do it in real life because ur'e already conditioned to what he can achieve and do with a ball.

and even so , have u seen him on the news recently when he just joined the LA galaxy ? everyone wanted to see him play in the friendly against chelsea DESPITE the fact that they already know what he can do as a footballer.And they are also critisizing him for not playing for the galaxy due to his injuries.

Everyone wants to be amazed in real life as close as possible.

If i saw beckham in real person at a field i would want to see him take one of his trademark free kicks because it would be a totally different experience to seeing it on TV.

your friends would ask u to perform if u said u were a magician because they want to see what u can do in real life and how it tallies to what they expect of a magician from what they've seen on TV.

Of course u dont' have to perform since u're not being paid.But i believe good performers are always ready and raring to go if u have the passion to perform.

i attended a mcbride lecture recently, and he was talking about how being a magician is a 24/7 thing. I'm sure jerome remembers how we were counting the number of times we performed in a day after that lecture! :)

well, that's true to a certain extent, but we are all human, and if we feel below par at the moment, and unable to perform to the best of our abilities, i would recommend a no-go.

it is better not to perform magic than to perform bad magic. i have had experiences like that before, where i either did not know when to stop, or shouldn't have started in the first place. and i end up beating myself up over it for the next couple of hours. do you want to bring your audience a sense of wonder? or satiate your ego? if the former is your goal, then you can be ready 24/7, or perform only when you know you CAN put on a good show.

any comments?