i juz cant do a trick properly even though i practised!!!! all the sleights r so tough!!

All I can say is keep on practicing you will get it down somehow lol... I am not very good either so I am still practice.. Advice Practice till you are good is not enough.. Practice till prefection is just the begining.. lol :P Just keep practing and you will get better all of us learn thru the hard way lol.. if you still can't get it when we are having our outing we can guide you around especially those pros in this forum will help you alot.. :D

Maybe if you tell us what trick you are trying to do and which are the parts that you are stuck with we can give you more useful information?

Avoid exposure thou B)

Pm Someone.. Or talk to edwin on msn, he probaly ADDED EVERYONE. :D

-Peace-

haha 36 so many alreaDy ..... anyway ... Tenshi.....remember practise x3
haha
:lol:

This is normal cos u want to do tricks like david blaine but if u take thing slowly u definitely will gain the experience. First to learn magic get u a mentor join the smc outing, secondly learn simple trick like DL, False Hindu Shuffle etc, for others learn basic palming and don't forget tengkai. If u done this then u go to another step, B)

PS: Remember to do your finger exercise

Tengkai.... i tot is Tenkai... lol....

onli haf one thing to say...practice makes perfect..lolz

"I didn't say it would be easy... I only said it would be worth it"

Remember that now, my young lilypad B)

-Kev

haha yah read Kevin's Signature......
"If it is so easy , why would i do it?"<----- is it like that? correct me if i am wrong haha....
:lol:

but effects and methods are diff. dai vernon, amongst other prominent magicians, stressed on the economy of movement. if an effect could be accomplished using a simpler method, y not?

the easier and simpler the better. less sleights = less chances of getting caught. difficult stuff (flourishes included) are just to show off and feel good abt it.

FLOURISHES TO SHOW OFF????

I dun think so, its a art by itself u amy ask me. I do magic and flourishes althou i dun do magic that often, but i dun do flourishes to show off, morever FEEL GOOD about it. I think it can be combined with magic to give a MUCH BETTER performance.. Alrite?

Dun wanna start another Flourish Versus Magic DEBATE.

-Ciao- :mellow:

i dun want a debate either on that either. the 2 are diff art forms true enough. anything else can be combined with magic (balloons, juggling, comedy), all forms of art. but some1 who does more balloons than magic for example shud not be called a magician, but a balloon sculptor using magic to create more interest (eg. chopstick thru balloon, balloon swallowing). i've seen performers who call themselves magicians but in their entire act, maybe 20% is magic. its degrading to magic. but if any1 thinks otherwise, u are entitled to ur opinion on this issue.

Haha, that must be the millionth time I've heard that. From who? From people who CANNOT flourish. I'm not saying from those who DO NOT, but those who just lack the ability to. If difficult "flourishes" are meant to "show off and feel good", then why do MAGICIANS do fans? Why do you spread the cards when you can just riffle down and cut? Why do magicians do nice false cuts or use a bridge when they riffle shuffle? Because it looks better? DAMN RIGHT it does.

If things like flourishes were just meant for showing off, then how in the world did De'vo MAKE A LIVING performing flourish shows? Are you saying that a magician should do NO false cuts, NOTHING fancy, and just use whatever moves he needs during a routine?

Then would that imply that if you were to perform the Erdnase Color Change, a BASIC, EASY magic move, that you would just do the shift of the two cards, and just stop there? Are you saying that should you do a DL and make a card change, you shouldn't add the suspense by waving over, or even blowing on the card?
I say that act of blowing that really DOESN'T DO ANYTHING AT ALL can enhance the change. It can increase interaction and of course, increase reaction. That, in itself, is a form of FLOURISHING, to make things look beautiful and fanciful.

Are we here to just DO things, or PERFORM them?
Can you spell the word "STYLE"?

Why in the world do people who do gymnastics or breakdance impress us?

Because:
1)It looks freaking cool
2)It IS freaking tough
3)I probably couldn't do what they just did

I've heard the line "I hate sybils" a couple of times. But that also translates to "I can't do sybils for nuts". It's come from a little irritating, to pretty damn amusing.
I remember when I first started off doing sybils. I didn't like them. Why? Because I couldn't impress with them. But now when I've dedicated time and effort to doing them better, I've changed my mind. I LOVE sybils. I love fans and all the flourishing in the world there is. I think flourishing is a fantastic thing to combine with magic, despite it being a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ART.

You think routines like CTG(Cradle To Grave) are just to show off? Well, CTG can be transformed into a magic routine, as the most impossible way of losing a card, and the most impossible way of revealing it. Incorporating flourishes with magic, ever thought of that?

Regarding you calling difficult things just to "feel good about", I take it that you probably do not have enough determination to master a move to have the feeling of ACCOMPLISHMENT. Nothing can be overlooked, magic and flourish-wise, no matter how easy or how difficult.

Many magicians can do the sleights, for sure, but there is evident sloppiness on the general handling of the deck. Half the time the deck looks messy even in mechanics grip. I'm not saying that anyone is unskilled if they fall into this category, but flourishing definitely improves this general handling.

I take a move for example, The Ambitious Riser Move by Fred Robinson used in the effect Raise Rise. A useless move? I don't think so. It serves as one of the best UTILITIES to make a colour change. It slays laymen, and magicians. Is it just for showing off? It could be, but it serves as one of the CLEANEST controls for hecklers who exclaim that you're using a DL.

Flourishing and Magic are TWO different arts, which can be fused together to enhance a performance. Some do just magic. Some do just flourishing. Some do both. If you do not flourish, or CANNOT flourish, please, do not insult the art. Stick to whichever art you think you're better at, but you have no right to criticize either, if it is anything less than constructive.

Do NOT state your opinion as fact.

Huron

Very Nice One Huron..

And i also dislike ppl who looks down or other ppl like: Hey

For ur information this is a card clip.

True and SMC member told me that another SMC member told him that, he was preety pissed.. lol.. ok peace

i am not trying to state my opinion as a fact. i do respect various opinions. im not saying that no flourishes at all either, i do some flourishes too. i do respect ppl who can do much better flourishes than i can. i respect magicians who use flourishes to their advantage.

the very nature of flourishes is to show off and look good. but i did not say that it is necessarily absolutely bad.

but some ppl do only flourishes and integrate magic in. thats where the difference lie.

using a flourish to lose a card and reveal it again is not magical. it takes a certain magic element out and ppl just pass it off as "hands fast". i do not take such "tricks" as magic, just plain trickery and display of skill. claiming that is magic is in fact degrading magic.

the are many cleaner controls out there which does not rely on fanciful or fast stuff. it is more convincing if u do magic slowly and effectively.

im not trying to critisize any art form, but rather performers who inappropriately "integrate" both (but some do well, and i respect them).

You are wrong my boi

I am stepping in here before this becomes a 7-page flame :D

Please turn with me to First Corinthians 8 verse 13 as i begin my sermon.....the law of liberty and the law of love........ -_-

Florishing is an art.
Magic is an art.

Some do one and not the other. Some do both. Some do neither.
Whichever art you do, whichever art you prefer, all is welcome in here.

But whichever art you choose, i will not sit by and let a flaming war start.

"But I am only stating my opinion. I have the right to my own opinion don't I? Where's the freedom of expression?"
Yes, you are entitled to your own opinion. Believe you me, I'm strongly for the freedom of expression. I believe in having diversity of opinions.
But it's one thing to exercise your freedom of expression, it's another totally different thing to abuse it. After all, the most sexist, racist, hate generating words can be uttered in the name of freedom of expression.

For example, to say you dun like an effect is an opinion. To say that you think people who does that are stupid is NOT an opinion.

Very very vague and grey area I know. It's not easy to draw the boundaries.
So for now i guess we all just have to live with me calling foul whenever I feel it.

But i urge EVERYONE, whenever possible, exercise grace and love and sensitivity. When you know certain subject/topic are sensitive and has proven to be the source of many previous dispute, tred carefully and politely ( For example, flourish vs magic).

Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
Amen.

And that is the end of the nice guy part -_-

Gordie, you have overstepped the boundaries in this case with the calling of flourishers "show offs" and that it's "degrading" which is sure to generate a response.
No Good.
Drop it. I'm serious. B)

But none of the flourishers will add onto this thread to attack him or add on to this issue, because we all know he didn't really mean to attack the flourishers per se.
Agree with me please. Thank you B)

And here forth, let there only be threads talking about how flourishing and magic complements each other and how to use them to enhance each other and none comparing them negatively.


Ok. I'm going to open this thread again in a while. We will all be nice then :)


Cheers

AH CLASSIC FORCE . lol.. ok.. morph.

wah lao, off topic liao...

anyway i think flourishes SHOULD be accompanied with magic to make ur show/performance nice nice

Haha.. when people see me flourish and attribute my skill in magic to fast hands.. i'd very much prefer that to them attributing it to a trick deck ;)

if ya know wat i mean..

I'm guessing my post was deleted because it was in some way or another offensive to gordie... so can I at least post the NON-offensive part, because I believe that it DID make sense and is some food for thought for everyone else. It won't be directed at anyone in specific.

C.

Here's MY take/theory on the whole flourish-diminishes-magic crap:

2 words; BE REALISTIC.

Everyone talks about how flourishing causes people to think that magic is just "fast hands"/"sleight of hand/display of skill". Think about it; this is 2004. Anyone who actually BELIEVES in real magic, please raise your hand. When you perform for someone, do you really think he/she believes that you really have some form of magical ability? No, but they watch it because it's entertaining. People don't want to believe something that they intuitively see as challenging the "norm", or what they've been led to believe all their life. When they keep seeing that card rise to the top of the deck over and over again in 10000 different ways, or when that coin was placed in one hand and instantly vanished, it's impossible to believe, so people don't choose to believe it, and attribute it to something else that FOLLOWS their way of thinking (i.e. the "norm"), and so you've got your "quick hands", "sleight of hand", and "steroid injection" theories. Well... actually, the steroid injection theory just happens to me, but anyway, that's the freaking way it is.

But who in the world has the damn RIGHT to say that fast hands don't entertain an audience? Magic is about entertaining, NOT trying to convince someone that you have magical powers of any sort. Trying to do that is condescending and insulting to your spectators, because you're trying to tell them something they don't believe in, and trying to MAKE them believe in it, and treating them as if they were total idiots, which is just wrong. In other words, they'll think it's all bullshit. Just because people think you have fast hands doesn't make magic bad in any form. People don't want to believe in magic in the first place. What they DO want, is to be entertained, and that's where your job lies, and hey, if they do think you're some supernatural element when you're finished blowing their minds, that's an added bonus to complement your magic and your performance.

Case in point: you shouldn't give a SHIT when people think your magic is fast hands, because number 1, it really is, and number 2, THEY don't give a shit either.

*this does NOT apply to mentalists and mentalism



C.

You can as long as it is not adding napalm to the fire :)

ok, i think i really have to restate my stand (peacefully) and clear any doubts/misunderstanding.

yes magic is abt entertaining, but u must understand that magic as a form of entertainment is diff from other entertainments. of course, no1 believes in real magic, but does that mean they do not want to witness something that they cannot explain?

i quote morphine in http://s7.invisionfree.com/SGMCircle/index...opic=618&st=30:

and the secret to them in a flourish-centred routine is "fast hands". and this will spoil the magical effect for the layman, although they might still be entertained.

again, i quote morphine from http://s7.invisionfree.com/SGMCircle/index...topic=618&st=0:

It IS entertainment no doubt. And impressive no doubt. But it's NOT QUITE magic."

I am not against flourishes, but i am against making flourishes the centre of your magic routine, and have "magic" revolve around flourishes, which i often see.

to those who are offended by my statement that "flourishes are to show off", im sorry. i know there are bad connotations attached to "show off", but what i really meant was not that flourishers are show offs, but that the nature of flourishers is to display a skill (not that it is bad). Many arts, and magic too to a certain extent, is abt displaying a skill. but magic has a different essence to it. if magic is purely a display of skill, then this form of entertainment would have "deviated from a magical entertainment".

retsevlys said

what is the nature and purpose of flourishes other than entertaining purely through a display of skill?


once again, i am not against flourishes, neither am i saying that "flourish-diminishes-magic" necessarily. it is in how u integrate flourishes to help in ur magic. it is a double edged sword. if u use it to ur advantage, it might help u, if u use it wrongly, it will hurt ur magic.


one more reply: CLJ said in the prev. post

not all magic require fast hands, and for magic that does, i think it requires concealing. if not, then i suppose its fine to have a few tricks that show that u have the ability and skill for "fast hand" magic. the audience cares if u use fast hands, as said earlier, if people can simply pass off magic as "fast hands", then the magical touch is lost and people will see magic as pure trickery (and nothing else!)

Number 1: your post was absolutely confusing.

Number 2: a lot of what you say is contradicting/just doesn't make sense at ALL.

Number 3: you really should read my previous post through and through because a lot of what you said here I already talked about.

That is EXACTLY the point I was making in my previous post. So you posting it here was pretty redundant. They want to witness something that they cannot explain, because it is ENTERTAINING to them.

The point you keep on stressing is that if you use flourishing, it "takes away" from the magic and makes people think that you have fast hands. So basically by that you're saying that if you DON'T use flourishing, people will think that your magic, in fact, is REAL magic, and that they won't attribute it to sleight of hand or any other scientific explanation! But you say that "of course, no1 believes in real magic". That's contradictory.

Number 1: That isn't called a "secret". It's called "ability". Number 2: in a normal magic routine with no flourishing, what do they attribute it to? Sleight of hand. It doesn't matter whether it's "fast hands" or "sleight of hand" or "a display of skill". There's no difference. People know magic uses sleight of hand. That does NOT mean that it will "spoil the magical effect for laymen". They're still entertained, and they've witnessed something that is unexplainable to them, and so they naturally attribute it to methods like quick hands, sleights, whatever. There is absolutely NO magic lost in that.

Nobody has been talking about making flourishes the center of your magic routine. Everyone has been talking about the OPPOSITE. Integrating flourishes into magic. NOT integrating magic into flourishing. So you've obviously been going in the wrong direction with this argument. You "often see" magic revolving around flourishes. It's strange because I haven't seen ANY of that in anyone's performances. You wanna raise an example?

You say that you have to appropriately integrate flourishing into magic, which I agree with, but in your previous post you say that using flourishing in magic "degrades magic". That's pretty contradictory.

Well, I basically answered this entire point in my previous post as well, so I don't know why you brought it up again. "not all magic require fast hands, and for magic that does, i think it requires concealing."- I don't think you're getting my point or anything remotely close to it. The point isn't about sleight of hand, or concealing, or fast hands or anything. The point is that people don't CARE. People don't care if you used fast hands to accomplish your effects. People don't care if you used sleight of hand to make that coin vanish. Why do you care about showing them something they don't care about? Spectators may know that you used sleight of hand but they don't know EXACTLY how you did it and therein is some retention of mystery and magic. How people will pass that off as "pure trickery" is beyond me.

You said that flourishing is only for "showing off and looking good". You mentioned nothing about it being used as an entertainment before this. It's like saying flourishing is paramount to magical masturbation.

I think you need to read the 4th paragraph of my previous post 999 times, because it basically answered almost everything you talked about in this post. Don't skim through the post. From your post, it seems to me like you only got a tenth of what I was trying to say. Here it is (the 4th paragraph of my previous post) one more time if you need reference to it:

But who in the world has the damn RIGHT to say that fast hands don't entertain an audience? Magic is about entertaining, NOT trying to convince someone that you have magical powers of any sort. Trying to do that is condescending and insulting to your spectators, because you're trying to tell them something they don't believe in, and trying to MAKE them believe in it, and treating them as if they were total idiots, which is just wrong. In other words, they'll think it's all bullshit. Just because people think you have fast hands doesn't make magic bad in any form. People don't want to believe in magic in the first place. What they DO want, is to be entertained, and that's where your job lies, and hey, if they do think you're some supernatural element when you're finished blowing their minds, that's an added bonus to complement your magic and your performance.


C.

em... this sounds like a war??
;)

just because u dun use flourishes in ur magic does not mean that people will believe in real magic. but the element of mystery is more. they cannot explain it, but doesnt mean they do not believe it is unexplainable.

spectators can take ur fast hands ability to "explain" how a trick is done. to them, that's the secret (although to us, it isnt). magic is lost once they can attribute a trick to being done through "fast hands".

flourishes like crazy cuts will confuse the audience, and if overly used as a control or false cut, can degrade magic. but other flourishes, if used properly, such as fans, springs, cascades, one hand cuts and stuff, can work in ur favor. i dun see any contradiction here.

just because ppl do not believe in real magic, or believe u accomplished an effect through pure sleight of hand, doesnt mean u can reveal ur "ability" to them in that way. people care if they see a fast and suspicious move, people care if they even suspect a move. should we simply bring down magic to a level where it is all just accomplished by "moves"?

pls, anything can be used as entertainment. do i need to state it so explicitly? even masturbation can be entertaining for others? :)

You DO realise that you're basically repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating over and over and over and over and over again stuff you have already said before, don't you?

Oh. My. God. I already just talked about this. If you don't use flourishing in magic, what will the spectators attribute it to? Sleight of hand. Sleight of hand and "fast hands". I don't see any obvious difference. So you're saying that if you don't use flourishing, people will believe that you really used magic to do whatever you did? Oh wait, that's contradicting what you've said before.

This is the only valid point you've made, and a point you've kept on repeating and repeating over and over again even though I've told you that I AGREE with this.

You. Are. Not. Getting. My. Point. At. All. I think I'm wasting my time arguing here. You are NOT revealing your "ability" to them in any way. You're taking words out of my mouth. I did not in any way imply ANY of what you said up there. Go read my reply to the 6th quote in my previous post, because you obviously didn't read that before typing this out.

Number 1: that isn't the point.

Number 2: that is sick.

You know, I'm saving this entire conversation before it gets deleted so I can have a good laugh about it after all this is done, and send it to numerous other people who can have a good laugh like me as well.

C.

haha. ok, i did read ur post carefully, but i think its because we disagree in the fundamentals of this issue, hence theres not much progress?

very simply:
1. i think that the audience should not even try to explain magic by the "fast hands" theory, cos magic is in a way "explained".
2. u think that even if the audience suspect "fast hands", the essence of magic is not lost, and that the element of mystery is still there as magic is not really "explained".

i dun want to proceed on with this debate anymore either. i believe we have all said what we wanted to. ok? peace... :)

HAHAH..we're back on topic..


HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

help on what?

<_< Do i have to give another "sermon"?

*hands over her King James version of the Holy Bible to Morphine* Here we go again... :rolleyes:

Okay.

Take up knitting.

Or if you want a better alternative, take up Kevin's very wise words because that's what I would have said too. Except phrased more crappily.

C.

Haha cmon fellas.. no more fighting.. lets keep it old school. magician vs gambler.. not magician vs flourisher.


Wars start because a hotheaded man wants to make another hotheaded man believe in his ideologies. tolerance for all beliefs man!!

(i have to agree that chris makes more sense though. not that im siding him as a friend, but he's a person who has done BOTH flourishing and magic, so he is in a better position to say things, although a bit too harshly huh.. :D )

lets just not fight :wub: :wub: :wub:

You know after the magic competition what are we going to have?

An inter-school magic debate B)

1 sentence says it all... gordie, if u'd wanna debate, speak english...

*piss*

Tell me exactly whats wrong with that. I've seen a performer doing a story deck trick for a medium sized audience and they all loved it. Magic is about entertaining them, not yourself. Being entertained yourself is just an additional bonus.

20% of magic is not a lot, but if a performer just uses 1% of magic in his act, and the rest is patter and audience connection, then be it! As long as your audience loves you, its good!

On the other hand, if someone was doing a rope routine that used others' moves and routineing, patter and style, and doesn't connect with the audince, zipping through move after move after move, and the audience doesn't understand what the hell is happening, then I'm pretty sure they are not going to like you. EVEN if your magic is 100% percent.

It all boils down to the entertainment your audience feels, and thats all there is to it.