You pull the four aces out of the deck, only to lose them back into the deck, just so you can find them again!

Read this line somewhere
Which sounds really true
Many of us still do that in card magic.. which i now think that is totally hilarious

What do laymen think? ever get questioned on this before?

Nope, never got questioned on it before.

The justification is simple - you're doing a magic trick.

- harapan. magic!

Never got questioned before.

Normally I would just ask the audience to pick up the deck and find me the four aces. Then I would tell them I would not find the aces like what they did, giving excuses like: "everyone can do that". I would find them in a more challenging way. They are allowed to place the aces back in the deck and shuffle them. Then without turning them over or even touching the deck (depends on what method you use), the four aces can be found.

Like this, they would not even think of questioning. Different people got different ways of presentation.

Another way is that just tell the audience to pick up the deck at the beginning of the trick and shuffle them real well. So they won't even know you are going to find the 4 aces later. And therefore, there won't be such question asked. :D

As someone who has attempted to perform an ace cutting routine on stage (and screwed up) I feel less than qualified to post anything about this topic. Still I hope I have learned something from my misadventure and I would like to share my views on this effect.

But first:

Just because most people are too polite to point it out doesn't mean they didn't notice it. Like I've said many times, lay people are not stupid. Sooner or later, someone is going to question you about it, implicitly or explicitly.

For example, if you perform an ace cutting sequence the way christo has outlined, someone is bound to ask you to cut the aces from a shuffled pack. To me that constitutes the spectator having noticed something, although he/she may not know exactly what.

Everytime I hear this I go into a spastic fit. Excuse me while I use my inhaler.

*WHEEZE* Ok done.

Magic is a suspension of the laws of physics, not a suspension of LOGIC. No matter how you look at it, taking the aces out then shoving them back in and then a bunch of fancy cuts to 'produce the aces' does look rather hokey.

Anyone with half a brain cell will realize the cuts are f**e and the aces are on t*p. I know this because when I was a layperson I figured it out. (and I know for a fact that I'm not the brightest bulb in the room.)

That being said, I offer some suggestions for the presentation of an ace-cutting sequence. Frankly I think the effect is quite pretty, and in the right hands can look somewat magical. It also is (IMO) a good opener for a card set. So how do we improve this routine?

First, we must justify why we are taking the aces out in the first place. Is it to make sure they are all there? Maybe the magician is taking them out so that the spectator may insert them? Is there even a need to take the aces out when a setup and a false shuffle will do?

(I wish to point out here that professional card magicians rarely take the aces out in order to control them. They almost universally opt to setup beforehand and then zarrow before the ace cutting sequence.)

Next is the revelation of the aces. Are you going to produce all 4 at the same time? One by one? Are you going to include color changes and transpos etc? Are you going to be very flashy or are you going for simple yet baffling moves? Can the spectator participate? These embellishments can make all the difference. More importantly, why are you doing it in the first place? As a display of supernatural dexterity? Gambling demonstration? Memory test?

Whatever your presentation is, it cannot be 'look here are the aces - TADA!!'.
And your motivation must be more than 'I'm doing a magic trick.'

Oh yeah, forgot about it. I don't take out the Aces just to find them again - I usually have a trick before that to produce the Aces, then lose them, then find.

mattlee: Erm... whatever. Yeah. We're suspending the laws of physics by pretending to make a card rise to the top and making a coin vanish.

I still stand that the justification for what I do is that, "I'm doing a magic trick, enjoy it".

You are doing a MAGIC TRICK. You aren't really having any special "powers" enabling you to cut to the Aces from a shuffled deck! You are just ACTING the part of a miracle man! If your audiences understand that, why would they give you challenges like "hey, find the aces from this deck now"?

At least that's my attitude. I'm not advocating it, just saying what I like to do. When doing magic, I'm not out to "create an impossible experience" or "suspend the laws of nature and physics" or "suspend disbelief and logic" or "bring dreams and wonder to everyone". I just do it, people enjoy it, people like it. Done.

- harapan. magic!

I think it'll be nice if you came for our next gathering and shared some of your ideas and views.

:)

Shade

Harapan:

First let me say that I enjoy a good/worthy debate on a subject that I am passionate about, so thank you for providing one. From your other posts is it clear that our interpretation on the use of cards in magic is the same - it is the performance that we are splitting hairs over.

I think we may have misunderstood each other when we talk about justification/motivation. I'm talking about justification of the individual 'moves' within a trick, whereas you are talking about the justification to actually show a trick in the first place.

With regards to the reasons to show/perform magic, I cannot fault you on your interpretation of magic, since this is highly personal. You believe that magic is a simple vehicle to allow others to enjoy themselves, whereas I believe that it is intrinsically something more. Our views on performing magic are not new/unique - many other magicians see things the same way as either one of us.

However my personal opinion on your way of thinking is this:

If your ultimate aim is for people to 'enjoy' themselves then don't be a magician. Be a comedian.

A standup comic is likely to evoke much more 'enjoyment' that a trickster/puzzler. Thus, if "people enjoy it, people like it" is your only aim when performing magic, you are not using the best tool for the job.

But like I said, this is what magic means personally to you. We can no more be right or wrong about this than the 2 blind men in that famous elephant story.

Technically, yes we are. The laws of physics state that if you have a coin in the right hand, it stays there since matter cannot be destroyed. (ceteris paribus, of course). Same for your other ambitious example.

That's not what Robert Houdin meant when he said that we "are actors playing the part of magicians."

When actors are 'in character' they are constantly thinking of the motivation behind their actions, they constantly check themselves to see if anything they do is out of character - i.e they really pretend to be someone they are not. As magicians, I believe (as Robert Houdin did) that we must constantly think about the motivation behind the tricks we do, framed against our performing persona/model.

Furthermore, it looks to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that your own 'silent script' when you perform consists simply of 'its just a trick, have fun!!'. If that is the case I find if hard to believe that you can actually 'act' the part of a magician, even in the context you are talking about.

Agreed, they probably won't ask you.

The reason is that since its all just an ACT, you probably can't do it anyway. I highly doubt that is the impression you want to portray.

Well, its no more absurd than asking someone to pick a card, lose it, and find it. Its almost the same.

well.

I think a better justification is the "demonstration of skill". Its like those science experiments in school where you know what is going to happen (eg the chemicals change to a certain colour) but you watch it nonetheless because its a demonstration. By that logic i think if you do the typical, take out of the deck, put in back in and find, then I generally find that a "demonstration" presentation is most logical.

If not I think Harapan's manner of doing it is better if you're performing it as a kind of magic.

"I usually have a trick before that to produce the Aces, then lose them, then find.
"

CSJ

HAHAHA! I never knew that magic has degraded to such an extent. Whatever happened to the meaning of magic?

Magic is an art. And art is communicating feelings that you have to other people. How does "I'm doing a magic trick, enjoy it" help in that communication?

Use some sense, please. We're here to accomplish the seemingly impossible. Not just to "do a magic trick".

Maybe we should meet up and see some more of your "ideas" in magic! Yeah.

That happens when you practice. If you don't give it a meaning, you're just performing "a magic trick" aka "stunt" aka "watch what I can do".

Ever thought about why you want to do that in the first place? Once you're done, you have given that effect a meaning, and that's what goes to the spectators.

Kenneth

Magic is not exclusively an art. It can also be a craft (stunts/skills...) . Certainly, art is on higher level. But not everyone can/wants to strive for that level in the first place. (And may be even your audience doesn't want that, too.)

People do enjoy crafts. You see people awestruck when they see people putting swords in their mouth, human cannonballs, crazy yo-yo skills... Most people are impressed by these. But they are hardly artistic. But can you say the same for art? How many people go to the art gallery, listen to "art" music? Or may be they seem to enjoy bubblegum pop more...Hmmm.

Of course I am not saying that you shouldn't be artistic. You can be artistic as well as commercial and entertaining. But there is some value in crafts/stunts, and people do enjoy them.

Actually, I agree with icy on this one. Magic can be whatever you want it to be.

The catch is for you to have consistency.

If you think that magic is a window into a weird and wonderful world where the impossible becomes possible, then portray that in your magic, in your performance.

Whereas if you think that magic is art, then create art in your magic - strive for higher meaning.

Likewise, if you think magic is a simple vehicle to have fun etc. - well... you BETTER be at least entertaining.

I quote myself:

Matt

Oh no. You have just said that magic is no exclusively an art? That means for all the years that magicians have kept secret, perfected, is not exclusively an art? Then what is it to you? Craft?

Craft IS PART OF ART! In school you study ARTS AND CRAFTS! Art is the communication of a feeling, and craft is the medium in which that communication is being done.

You have no idea what you are saying.

Make some sense please. I don't mean to be rude here but, have you read anything on magic theory before? If you haven't, please grab one off Magic Boutique and start reading.

If magic is whatever you want it to be, what is it to you? Not an art?

No wonder Max Maven said "They (modern magicians) have taken what is inherently profound and rendering it rather trivial".

Oh PLEASE! Save us!

Kenneth

Haha, I see you have corrected yourself.

Well, yes. Art and craft is related. And your explanation of art and craft is very true, too. And what I said about magic is not exclusively an art is a weird statement. I usually think in terms of whether something have the potential to create art.

However, what I am trying to bring across is that you can't force everyone to become an artist. People who take up magic can choose for themselves how far they would like to take their magic to. It is not WRONG. And I suspect most people are at this level. But of course magic has a lot of potential to be an art, and those who wish can take up that challenge.

Of course it is more desirable if most people are artistic magicians. That would really make magic an art by general public perception. But I insist that there is nothing wrong for not being an artist, it's just not so desirable, and, yes, sad, because magic has that potential.

You can continue lamenting on what Max Maven said, or continue doing superb artistic magic (or mentalism that transends conceptual art for Maven ^_^).

:off: By now you have probably deduced my favorite magician.

You know what I find that's really degrading and "trivialising" magic?

People who teaches magic to be used as a "pick-up-line".
People who reduce magic to some cheap, attention seeking stunts to be used for hitting on girls.

What do you think of people who do that Kenneth?

Let them do their cheap stunts and whatever.

We'll keep the good ones for ourselves.

Anyway, these people need to seriously take up something else as a hobby. In this case I do not know what else they should pick up.

We have to understand one thing about trivializing magic. David Blaine did not start it. In my opinion, E did. They were the bunch of jokers who started putting up things like "How to do Street Magic" and all their junk. Causing waves and waves of "opportunists", "posers" to start the entire thing about degrading magic.

Darn. I am really affected by what Icy said about "Magic is not exclusively an art". I am insulted. What people made secret, perfected over the years is simply dismissed by "not exclusively art"

We give meaning to effects and tricks, not because it needs sugar coating, because it is essential. Vernon said that the "entertaining part about magic is the story". This kind of eliminates the idea about the senseless "take out aces, lose them in the deck and finding them again". PEOPLE JUST MISSED THE POINT! I perform magic to convey a feeling, and that is art. My skill is the craft that is used to communicate that feeling.

What in the world does he treat magic as?

I am saying this because I am angry, insulted and humiliated. Any serious student of magic, upon hearing this, will surely in a way "mob" that guy.

Please Icy, make some sense. Magicians are artists, like it or not. If not, just why in the world do you perform? To impress people? MAGIC IS AN ART! Anyone who starts their magical journey have to realize that they will be and are artists. Communication of mystery and feelings are the primary goal of a magician.

MAKE SOME SENSE! What do you mean by "magic has the potential"? If you do not uphold magic as an art. QUIT.

Magic as an art is public perception? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Read Darwin Ortiz, Vernon, Tamariz and Ascanio. Read their views.

I have had enough. If you do not uphold magic as an artform by itself, QUIT. There is absolutely no point whatsoever for you learning silly tricks to impress people. THIS IS NOT WHAT MAGIC IS ABOUT!

Stop cheapening our art, people.

Kenneth

I'm not talking about those who are learning this "pick up magic", I consider them misguided victims which is by no fault of their own.

I'm talking about self-proclaimed magicians who have been teaching these "courses".
These "magicians" who have been teaching these young men that magic is the best (and possibly the ONLY) way they have any chance at getting a girl's attention.
These "magicians" who have cheapen magic to little more than a convenient way out to get a girl's phone number.

Like you, I cannot help but feel insulted that to layman, I'm loosely placed in the same category as these people......."magicians".

Gee.. I feel the same way as you do.

Especially the group of people I'm associated with decided one day that HE (note: one person) is going in that direction.

So I shall make it clear here.

I am only loosely involved in that "Team". No major things whatsoever. Just did 2 lectures and that's about it. No further involvement.

I guess such self proclaimed people can only truly open up their tiny eyes when they read books on theory.

Bend or break though.

Seriously. I view such activity no less than money laundering.

Kenneth